The Ethics Of Copies

[Mikey P]

I like Landy_Dom's approach, combined with a really good statement from someone earlier on about the 'intent to deceive', and Laurentius' comment on originality, especially when it coms to knives/tools (indeed, it is possibly the case that manufacturers have patented tool/knife designs that have developed over thousands of years - it could be argued that this is unethical too). They answer a lot of the issues I have.

There are frequently statements made about buying kit that is purported to have been 'made in the same factory' and, therefore, is effectively the same item without the badge. Whilst I accept that this is occasionally true, it is a dangerous assumption to make and frequently stated by those who have a vested interest in selling you a poor imitation (it's good sales patter). The company I work for have been offered counterfeit electronic parts from an eastern european vendor at 'unbelievable' prices, that were purported to be made in the same Far East fab as the genuine article. We didn't buy them but tipped off Trading Standards. The subsequent investigation found that the parts were made in a totally different fab and were very inferior with some real reliability issues.

On the other hand, I believe Alpkit fell foul of a 'made in the same factory' issue last year (?) when they were challenged by, I think, Vango? A Chinese manufacturer making kit for Alpkit was basically making the Vango design without the badge in the same factory, and selling it a lower cost to Alpkit (I think that's the general gist of it). I think Alpkit ended up having to change the design in order to satisfy Vango.

I guess at the end of the day (as well as it going dark...), we have to be guided by our own individual standards when dealing with these matters. I would encourage purchasers to think twice about buying what are clearly copies of popular original items but it is entirely down to the individual.

Clearly, my ideas and opinions on the matter are different to other peoples and, well, it would be pretty boring if we were all the same. I reckon Tony and the mods would jump on anything that was questionable on a legal basis, regardless of where I draw the line.

 

[marcelxl]

Interesting thread................

My two penneth.......... I am not refering the the larger companies blatantly copying as above posts are illustrating but from a smaller and more bespoke nature-particularly knives and such....
As music was mentioned......... is it like covering somebody elses song as homage to the artist yet making it your own by taking it seriously and hitting it in your own style and essentially giving a nod to its original creator?
Kinives are a great example. The most basic of cutting tools consisting of a blade and a handle and thats pretty much it, and the knives championed on here are basic and functional and there is only so far that can be gone with them other that pretty subtle and personal refinements.
We have some great custom knife makers on here who do it out of the love it as much as anything, woodlore clones, bushtools, nessmuks and the like are all proven and are still often given the makers own style, but they are still based on proven designs that were around before they were!

Nothing I have ever encountered is as personal as knife choice for the ardent outdoorsman!

As said though, trying to claim its an original/more prestigious maker/brand though, thats BS, quite disgusting and bringing to everyones attention so we know to avoid them!

 

[Xunil]

...

What I was surprised to see was some comments along the line that 'making counterfeit goods is OK because it is a supply and demand situation'. Sorry - couldn't disagree more. This is both wrong and indefensable - breaking the law because you feel like it? Hello? Just because you don't want to pay the cost that a manufacturer charges, does not mean it's then OK to purchase counterfeit goods. Where has this attitude come from? What happened to saving up for something you really want? Are we all now slaves to 'instant gratification'?
...

I'm not sure anyone has actually said that, have they - I know a lot of folks (myself included) have said very roughly that copies of currently popular or in-demand kit are OK but I don't think anyone is condoning counterfeit goods, which is something entirely different.

"In the style of" is entirely different to carbon copy counterfeits that includes the original makers marks rather then the actual makers.

Yes, I fully agree that there is a moral issue but this will mean different things to different people depending on a number of factors, not least of which will be their level of disposable income and whether they can afford the luxury of the moral high ground. I would rather see folks out there and enjoying the great outdoors with kit they can comfortably afford than not go out at all until they can save enough (if indeed they ever manage to) to provide the kit on their wish-lists.

We live in a world of taught/learned values and behavioural response. What we consider wrong might not get a second glance in other cultures with different default values and the "eye for an eye" approach of some cultures is viewed as too extreme a response by many in our part of the world. I'm choosing my words carefully to avoid bringing specific cultural and religious values into the discussion...

Where is the middle ground ?

What is acceptable to everyone ?

Answers on a postcard please.

Often there just aren't enough of "Item X" to supply the demand for them or the original maker/manufacturer may have stopped making them entirely (retirement, death, etc). It's hardly surprising that now you can buy clones of varying degrees of quality, from the adequate to the truly superb, from a number of enterprising makers. The same could be said of clothing, rucksacks, cookware, knives, axes, canoes etc, etc and so on and so forth.

But I would ask you to cast your net further before you expect everyone to toe a particular line:

BMW bike racks look suspiciously similar to one made by Thule - for all I know they may even be produced by the same manufacturer in the same factory and badged accordingly. Oddly, the price is quite different, as is the marketing spin for both products...

Nissan are currently selling a re-badged Suzuki Alto (for less than Suzuki charge themselves for the same car by the way) and a few years back Ford was selling a re-badged Nissan built 4x4 (Maverick/Terrano) and they were selling more of them than Nissan were, who made them. A lot of Ford's marketing spin sold the vehicle as incredibly innovative and original (not that they had an ounce of input into any of it) and I don't recall any of their literature stating "This car was built by Nissan and had Ford alloys and a Ford badged horn-pad fitted..."

Put the same requirements into any design software and the end results will keep shelling out very similar solutions to the design problem, which is why most cars look broadly similar - part of this is down to manufacturers wanting to capitalise on the sale success of a competitor product and the rest is mainly down to the fact that you can only get so many variations when you want the same things from a car.

Pouring yoghurt ?

That's standard yoghurt in a bottle designed to pour from - you can achieve the same thing by tipping up a standard pot, so all this is is spin.

Ski yoghurt is made (or at least owned) by Nestle and any made in your neighbours garage and labelled and sold as Ski yoghurt is counterfeit. Very different.

Hoover, Hotpoint, Bosch, Zanussi etc. Take the badges off, disassemble the washing machines and see how close most of them are in most details. Who copied whom ?

That is a very, very different kettle of fish to counterfeiting, and it is so widespread that most folks probably don't even know (or if they do, it is so commonplace that they can selectively choose to overlook it) the level of broadbrush copying that goes on in almost everything we buy.

Microwaves, laptops, TVs, smart phones, iPad and similar pad devices, blah, blah...

I can see a lot of areas where I agree with most of your points but I also think it is dead easy to be morally selective in today's society where almost everything we buy and use daily is an almost direct copy of something, somewhere, by someone other than the manufacturer we bought it from.

Dyson didn't invent the vacuum cleaner but they sell a lot of them and nobody seems to have an issue that the overall concept is:

1. over 100 years old
2. is produced by a great many counterpart competitor manufacturers along a common platform

It's not something I give much thought to when I'm hoovering the house

It would be a mistake to assume that people are condoning certain facets of this discussion when they aren't - examine the contents of your house and compare them with your family and friends and be astonished at how many products are almost identical that came from various manufacturers, all claiming that theirs is somehow better in a bid to get you to part with your money when, in some cases at least, they may not have even manufactured the item to begin with.

Where is the line drawn in the sand ?

 

[ged]

The ignition key for one of our Mercedes vans broke in two. It's a perfectly ordinary bit of metal and plastic. No internal electronics, no precious metals.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess at the price Mercedes quoted for a replacement?

Here's a clue: I bought a copy instead.

 

[Xunil]

The ignition key for one of our Mercedes vans broke in two. It's a perfectly ordinary bit of metal and plastic. No internal electronics, no precious metals.

Would anyone like to hazard a guess at the price Mercedes quoted for a replacement?

Here's a clue: I bought a copy instead.

What he said

 

[andybysea]

I have two views on this, the stuff mass produced in China is in my mind utter crud and i try as much as i can to not buy any.(infortunately having kids there doesnt seem to be many toys thats are'nt made there) and its partly ourselves to blame but also greedy bosses wanting to make more and more profit.On the other hand the prices of some things not made there, are beyond many folks price range, so what do they do? I always try to buy the best things made by the best manufactures i can afford, but if someone made something that was the same quality as someone else but sold it for less by accepting less profit(not by inferior materials or workmanship) id opt for the cheaper.

 

[Laurentius]

I certainly was not condoning counterfeits when I suggested that buying a cheaper copy of something is not necessarily taking revenue from the manufacturer of a better specced and higher cost product, because there are product niches and the purchaser of the cheap copy is not buying the product to pass it off as the original, they buy it because they either cannot afford the original or do not wish to buy the original, they have made a perfectly legitimate market choice, and one the manufacturers of both products are aware of when they chose which market sector to be in.

For instance if I buy a Suzuki Jimny instead of a Chrysler Jeep

When you buy a cheap copy of something, that is what you get, when you buy a counterfeit product, you are getting something else, because you are not buying so much for the utility of the product as it's extrinsic value in the eyes of others, for show in other words, and that is out and out fraud, no two ways about it.

 

[billygoatscruff]

Just thought i'd poke my nose in here.All fair comments about substandard material and lesser workmanship.You pay yer money......!I know badge collectors who have quite a valuable collection(once),but copies of the rarer ones coming from China have dropped their value considerably.I do not like the Asian knife copies and would not buy one.Better to buy a used quality knife of the forum than a cheap copy,(If you're quick enough; that is!).

 

[lucan]

Making a copy of something and passing it off as the "genuine article" is Counterfeiting and that i don't agree with. But I don't have a problem with reputable companies selling Good quality "clones/copies" of a more expensive style, So long as they don't pass em off as the original.

If i can't afford it i won't buy it. It's as simple as that, I'll look for a cheaper alternative, That's just as good.

I find that most stuff that is passed off as "Bushcrafty/Woodlore" is vastly overpriced t.b.h The same as most things in life with a "must have label , or a Certain makers stamp on it " Whether it be sharps/clothing/etc. So the need for me to look for a copy/cheaper alternative is greater.

Why buy that knife, with his name on it for £150, When you can buy this knife for £25 Virtually the same, Perfectly legal, and no difference in quality.

I think the manufacturers or makers are partly to blame for people seeking alternatives, whether they be counterfeit or legal copies.

 

[johnboy]

There are frequently statements made about buying kit that is purported to have been 'made in the same factory' and, therefore, is effectively the same item without the badge. Whilst I accept that this is occasionally true, it is a dangerous assumption to make and frequently stated by those who have a vested interest in selling you a poor imitation (it's good sales patter).

On the other hand, I believe Alpkit fell foul of a 'made in the same factory' issue last year (?) when they were challenged by, I think, Vango? A Chinese manufacturer making kit for Alpkit was basically making the Vango design without the badge in the same factory, and selling it a lower cost to Alpkit (I think that's the general gist of it). I think Alpkit ended up having to change the design in order to satisfy Vango.

It depends on what you are buying and from whom especially when it come to chinese factories and who you are buying the item from back in the UK ( or where ever).

A lot of Chinese suppliers work on a basis of supply to a customer ( UK based distributor such as Alpkit or Vango) either on a OEM ( original equipment manufacture) or ODM ( Original Design + Manufacture) basis. OEM generally means the customer supplies the design and the Chinese factory make it to the specification given. This is how companies like Berghaus, Northface etc work. Generally with ODM the factory cannot supply the product to anyone other than the original customer.

ODM is more complicated as a buyer what you are doing is sourcing products from factories that have made their own stuff and this is open to being offered to anyone worldwide and also in you market. The upside is all the risk for tooling and production is borne by the factory and the unit cost is usually lower. So you can make more margin or sell at a lower cost or do both.

Alpkits MiTi mug is a potentially good example of an ODM product.

A quick look on Alibaba and we can find a company in Ningbo supplying what looks to be a remarkably similar mug on a ODM basis.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/295370487/Titanium_mug.html

The risk you run as a distributor is factories selling you stuff that is in reality OEM on an ODM basis. But in reality if you know your market and suppliers then you know when you are being offered something you shouldnt. The problem as I see it is all this ODM sourcing does is ultimately force the price point of a given item or product category down as competing distributors vie for a lower price or increased market share. At some point a product has it's lowest cost for a given quality. After that point to get lower costs quality generally has to suffer.

Still folk out there are willing to buy stuff so the global economy marches on.

As for knives.. well Alibaba throws up this..

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/391639694/Bear_Grylls_Saw_Blade_Survival_Knife.html

MOQ of 5 pcs shall we run a group buy??

 

[Mikey P]

Good stuff, everyone. A lot of food for thought and I think it has certainly 'softened the edges' of my own feelings on the grey areas. I think I understand a little mor of how others view the subject. Thanks.

 

[Barn Owl]

Basically I can condone folk buying blatant copies because of their financial circumstances.

I don't however condone those who supply same.

Why is it ok to send counterfeit clothing to the 'third world' that has been consficated, when the reason it's bought here is the same...can't afford the real thing?

I won't get into any debates because it'll end up as being seen as political.

Suffice to say I only wish everything was equal in the world.