I got a similar reply via my MP from the HS. Movement on folders, no movement on internet sales.
The End of Internet Knife Sales. Law change could target one-hand opening folders
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I had this reply from my MP this morning.
"Thank you for your email regarding restrictions surrounding the online sale of knifes.
Like you, I, too, am dismayed by rising levels of knife crime. I am similarly shocked by the recent spate of stabbings in London and in other areas across the country that have resulted in the deaths of so many, particularly young, people. I believe we need robust restrictions on the sale of knifes in shops and online in order to help combat knife crime and to prevent underage people or those with nefarious intentions from having access to knifes and blades.
However, I believe you are right that we must be mindful of the unintended consequences of such restrictions and ensure that those who purchase knifes and blades for legitimate reasons, along with legitimate manufactures of said products, are not adversely affected. You highlight some important issues in your email and I have therefore raised your concerns with the Home Secretary, Sajid Javid MP. I will, of course, let you know as soon as I receive a response to my enquiry."
"Thank you for your email regarding restrictions surrounding the online sale of knifes.
Like you, I, too, am dismayed by rising levels of knife crime. I am similarly shocked by the recent spate of stabbings in London and in other areas across the country that have resulted in the deaths of so many, particularly young, people. I believe we need robust restrictions on the sale of knifes in shops and online in order to help combat knife crime and to prevent underage people or those with nefarious intentions from having access to knifes and blades.
However, I believe you are right that we must be mindful of the unintended consequences of such restrictions and ensure that those who purchase knifes and blades for legitimate reasons, along with legitimate manufactures of said products, are not adversely affected. You highlight some important issues in your email and I have therefore raised your concerns with the Home Secretary, Sajid Javid MP. I will, of course, let you know as soon as I receive a response to my enquiry."
Depends where you are I guess. If Royal Mail can't deliver a parcel I have to drive 10 miles to go get it and the depot has really inconvenient opening hours, but there are plenty of click and collect locations nearer to me. Click and collect is often easier than waiting at home for deliveries these days. I imagine it will be a real pain for some people though.
Aye, I can imagine some people will have an issue if they have to travel a bit. I too find it much more convenient to collect myself, and heinnie are not that out of the way for me either, couple it with an outing it's no big deal.
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I see that the bill has been made public now.
https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2017-19/offensiveweapons/documents.html
The 'flick knife' amendments are a bit clearer than before and do say 'a blade that opens automatically' which can't be applied to knives that are opened manually so one handed folders seem to be safe for now.
The delivery of knives law is a bit confusing and I need to look at it more but it seems that my house isn't classed as 'residential' since I work from home. It makes me wonder how much work you need to do from home to be exempt from the law. There also seem to be proposed defenses for knives built or modified to order, sporting goods and historical re-enactment. It might be that makers can offer some customising work as part of sales to allow home postage anyway.
The definition of a 'bladed product' is pretty woeful though: It says something along the lines of 'has a blade and can cut skin causing serious injury'. There will likely be some rediculous objects caught up in that definition, even things that aren't restricted sale items at the moment. Hopefully I've missed a crucial part of the definition somewhere.
https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2017-19/offensiveweapons/documents.html
The 'flick knife' amendments are a bit clearer than before and do say 'a blade that opens automatically' which can't be applied to knives that are opened manually so one handed folders seem to be safe for now.
The delivery of knives law is a bit confusing and I need to look at it more but it seems that my house isn't classed as 'residential' since I work from home. It makes me wonder how much work you need to do from home to be exempt from the law. There also seem to be proposed defenses for knives built or modified to order, sporting goods and historical re-enactment. It might be that makers can offer some customising work as part of sales to allow home postage anyway.
The definition of a 'bladed product' is pretty woeful though: It says something along the lines of 'has a blade and can cut skin causing serious injury'. There will likely be some rediculous objects caught up in that definition, even things that aren't restricted sale items at the moment. Hopefully I've missed a crucial part of the definition somewhere.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2017-2019/0232/18232.pdf
There will only be changes if people demand that there be changes. Next reading is on the 27th, I believe.
While the word "automatically" would lead most knife savvy people to think this all only applies to spring assisted knives, and therefore leaves all other one-handed openers, even flippers, alone, I am not convinced this will prove to be the case. I fear judges using the grey area to legislate further from the bench, as they are wont to do.
DARJAC666 at Edgematters:
There will only be changes if people demand that there be changes. Next reading is on the 27th, I believe.
In section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 (penalties for offences in connection with dangerous weapons), in subsection (1), for paragraph (a) substitute—
(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically—
(i) from the closed position to the fully opened position, or
(ii) from a partially opened position to the fully opened position, by manual pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the knife, and which is sometimes known as a “flick knife” or “flick gun”; or”.
(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a " gravity knife ",(ii) from a partially opened position to the fully opened position, by manual pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the knife, and which is sometimes known as a “flick knife” or “flick gun”; or”.
The clarification of which folding locking knife types that may be subject to surrender is a very real one. The issues we as owners face with the modern redefinition wording content that references the 53 & 59 OWA are simply that the gravity knife wording from the same era are not mutually exclusive. Therein lies the issue of mix & match wording that will confuse. The clearly demonstrated example is Border Force application of "switchblade & Gravity knife wording" using the term "prohibition in force" to capture almost any locking folder.
I believe the "judicial grey" of the proposed bill wording is unhelpful. The attempts of the previous OWA & CJA etc to bring clarity to the public, largely speaking, remain untested.
We will be left at the mercy of "Is it or isn't it legal" We will have a continuation of "No mans land" legislation. The above is not Just my own opinion. Mr Harriman (Firearms & knives expert for BASC) takes a similar view.
The window of compensation due to owners for " knive types impacted & subject to surrender" will have a dated sunset clause. Should the Govt not wake up to the sheer compensation & Admin costs these law changes may cause to the existing compensation model, an estimated at £20 million plus will need to be found by the tax payer. When the Bill becomes law, the current wording already mentions pre ownership date of June 20th irrc. The Bill wording states proof of ownership before this date. This is nonsense. Ownership before the date is proven by ownership, nothing more.
The sunset clause on compensation claims will Provide a narrow window to surrender with receipts or valuations. After this end date, no compensation will be paid. Owners surrendering prohibited items after this date will not not be paid compensation.
I believe the "judicial grey" of the proposed bill wording is unhelpful. The attempts of the previous OWA & CJA etc to bring clarity to the public, largely speaking, remain untested.
We will be left at the mercy of "Is it or isn't it legal" We will have a continuation of "No mans land" legislation. The above is not Just my own opinion. Mr Harriman (Firearms & knives expert for BASC) takes a similar view.
The window of compensation due to owners for " knive types impacted & subject to surrender" will have a dated sunset clause. Should the Govt not wake up to the sheer compensation & Admin costs these law changes may cause to the existing compensation model, an estimated at £20 million plus will need to be found by the tax payer. When the Bill becomes law, the current wording already mentions pre ownership date of June 20th irrc. The Bill wording states proof of ownership before this date. This is nonsense. Ownership before the date is proven by ownership, nothing more.
The sunset clause on compensation claims will Provide a narrow window to surrender with receipts or valuations. After this end date, no compensation will be paid. Owners surrendering prohibited items after this date will not not be paid compensation.
This is now a fight to amend a bill that will be law.
Most (European) countries have very similar gun and knife laws.
Except:
UK - no handguns
Czech Rep - Hand gun permit gives automatic 'concealed carry' permit.
We should refrain from using the word 'weapons'. Guns, knives, ice picks, vehicles, credit cards.
Peaceful objects that can do a lot of damage if used wrongly.
Except:
UK - no handguns
Czech Rep - Hand gun permit gives automatic 'concealed carry' permit.
We should refrain from using the word 'weapons'. Guns, knives, ice picks, vehicles, credit cards.
Peaceful objects that can do a lot of damage if used wrongly.
Agreed; the word "weapon" is a descriptor which is dependant on the actions of the user rather than a designator which defines a purpose or intent.
We're all aware of how more or less any object can be used as a weapon, after all. I could use my shotgun to hold up a bank or to hold down a stack of CND posters when it's windy. It's only a weapon in one of these scenarios.
Further from Edge Matters:
The response describes why we should still be concerned, despite the apparent aim of the wording:
"If the intent was to include all OHO knives then surely it would say that, it would certainly be simpler wording.
You could 'flick open' a car door if you yanked on the handle hard enough and let go, but it's not how it was designed and you wouldn't call it automatic. Opening a car door requires constant force until it's open then you let go, same as a hole or thumb stud.
With a train door when it stops you press a button once then the whole door opens, that's automatic.
That's the difference to me."
You could 'flick open' a car door if you yanked on the handle hard enough and let go, but it's not how it was designed and you wouldn't call it automatic. Opening a car door requires constant force until it's open then you let go, same as a hole or thumb stud.
With a train door when it stops you press a button once then the whole door opens, that's automatic.
That's the difference to me."
The response describes why we should still be concerned, despite the apparent aim of the wording:
"It's a fair & logical opinion that you have there
. I can't help offering that logic is wasted on this subject when the definition or case law precedents remain untested. To then introduce the current bill wording redefinition that appears only to serve the Govt & HO purpose. That is to prevent future sales & cast enough doubt over ownership in the eyes of the general public.
New York City judges continue to flout State law & its wording.
http://knifenews.com/ny-court-…2017-switchblade-verdict/
If the HO & Met are looking to reinforce a 60 year old knife law to meet modern knife types that has no case law precedent & update that definition, then they must clarify "Automatic" or "Automatically" in the wording.
Imho, this is a powered mechanism, be it a spring or gas operation that imparts its stored energy to move another component ( a blade in this case) to open.
The concern centres around how "centrifugal" force from gravity knife definitions is mixed in to cloud the issue. The intent of a knife type is difficult to define, let alone prove.
An example is Benchmade's axis lock. (as fitted to the Griptilian line, arguably the best folding knives on the market for bushcraft/camping/expedition travel) It works as a conventional knife with thumb studs / finger hole mounted to or in the blade to open from closed.
All good....until you release the spring force applied through the lock in the handle to the blade.
The blade may fall free under gravity from the handle. Imho, it's design intent was never a gravity knife. However, should you or any person demonstrate that method of opening to a court, it's not going to go well imho.
The wording of a law is everything. Do we continue with gray & vague ?
I can't see how we can. Possession of the knife types discussed in many US & European states is permitted.
Carry is not permitted without reason or CCW permit.
What we are facing in UK is total prohibition & surrender of ownership with compensation pending. Please define the law."
New York City judges continue to flout State law & its wording.
http://knifenews.com/ny-court-…2017-switchblade-verdict/
If the HO & Met are looking to reinforce a 60 year old knife law to meet modern knife types that has no case law precedent & update that definition, then they must clarify "Automatic" or "Automatically" in the wording.
Imho, this is a powered mechanism, be it a spring or gas operation that imparts its stored energy to move another component ( a blade in this case) to open.
The concern centres around how "centrifugal" force from gravity knife definitions is mixed in to cloud the issue. The intent of a knife type is difficult to define, let alone prove.
An example is Benchmade's axis lock. (as fitted to the Griptilian line, arguably the best folding knives on the market for bushcraft/camping/expedition travel) It works as a conventional knife with thumb studs / finger hole mounted to or in the blade to open from closed.
All good....until you release the spring force applied through the lock in the handle to the blade.
The blade may fall free under gravity from the handle. Imho, it's design intent was never a gravity knife. However, should you or any person demonstrate that method of opening to a court, it's not going to go well imho.
The wording of a law is everything. Do we continue with gray & vague ?
I can't see how we can. Possession of the knife types discussed in many US & European states is permitted.
Carry is not permitted without reason or CCW permit.
What we are facing in UK is total prohibition & surrender of ownership with compensation pending. Please define the law."
That's true. For me a knife is a tool for cutting things. When I came to Britain there were a bushcraft knife, an axe and a machete in my backpack. Neither the border police nor the normal police in Hereford was interested in these tools. They just asked for what I would use them and I answered "for wildcamping and for building a bushcraft camp". During the planing of my trip arounf GB I was really scared because of these tools in my backpack. But I asked a police headquarter in Britain and I got the answer, that it would'nt be a problem if I carry the tools coverd in the backpack.
The problem here is that you cannot rely on the word of one policeman to prove that you have permission to carry, its a bit like getting stopped for speeding, one policeman(person) may give you a bo*******g and let you off, another may give you a ticket, same offence two different outcomes, that is the problem with laws, it depends who you are dealing with and whether they understand the proper defence or reason you are allowed to carry as laid down in the act.
Wow, and I really thought, the german weapons law is dificult.
I am a British expat living in the German alps , I find the laws here for knives ECT ECT quite sensible and good. I have never had a problem wearing a fixed blade while in my outdoor clothes
That's right. You can have a 11.99 cm fixed blade hanging on your belt almost everywhere. It's legal. But to come back to this thread: In Germany a 11.99 cm fixed knife is legal. A 1.00 cm folder openable with one hand is a crime. I was a rescue climber and paramedic for 26 years. I had to have a rescue knife ( folder, one hand openable, min. 9.00 cm blade with 30 % serrations, rounded tip ). Last year the german weapons law changed and these one hand folders became illegal. So each and every rescue service with rescue climbers as well as all rescue divers and rescue swimmers had a very big problem: NO KNIFE - NO RESCUE SERVICE.
We had to find a new solution. We found a fixed blade rescue knife. So we had to waste hundrets of folding knifes ( each 128 Euro ) and to buy hundrets of fixed knifes ( each 280 Euro )
That's not really clever.
Whilst I kind of agree with the sentiment, there are a ton of things that are designed as weapons. Even the Americans raise an eyebrow at a Streetsweeper, for instance. A random, inaccurate multi-shot shotgun to be used in numbers for firing indiscriminately into crowds of people. Not ducks or targets, just large groups of people. We have to be clear around this stuff and distinguish between reasonable tools and destructive weapons, otherwise we sound as unhinged as Them.
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