Aparently 66 percent of infections never show any symptoms what so ever, so the 250,000 uk cases is at least 750,000 if not far higher, consindering that it was 10 weeks before any sort of mass testing was avaliable for the small fraction of people who where deemed worthy. Even then it was just nhs staff teachers and the like who felt ill. Must be well into the 7 figures if not low 8
The Covid19 Thread
- Thread starter C_Claycomb
- Start date
It's very good to hear the success stories of people doing their jobs so very effectively.
A group of Indian researchers created their own test and got it up and into production in weeks.
www.the-scientist.com
A group of Indian researchers created their own test and got it up and into production in weeks.
Inside the Effort to Make India’s First COVID-19 Test
A nearly all-female team of researchers developed a PCR diagnostic tool in a record-setting six weeks.
www.the-scientist.com
Heads up spoiler before reading the whole long post: in all cases it’s a combination of civil servants, elected officials, unpaid volunteers, and private contractors.
I’ll start with the military. It’s a combination of:
-Active Duty
-Reserves
-National Guard
-Air National Guard
-Naval Militia
-Civilian civil servants
-and yes indeed, a very large proportion of private contractors. However these are NOT civil servants. That term here by definition is reserved for civilian employees
-Two services are also augmented by unpaid volunteer auxilliaries:
—-The Air Force is augmented by its auxiliary, the Civil Air Patrol (this auxiliary utilizes privately owned aircraft and has sunk at least one confirmed enemy submarine in WW2 and produced multiple search and rescues every year since) Members also provide their,own personal amateur radio equipment for the CAP’s communications needs.
—-The Coast Guard is augmented by its auxiliary which is simply called the Coast Guard Auxilliary (this auxiliary primarily conducts boat safety checks and safety education as well as safety patrols on various waterways using the members’ own boats and equipment. They also furnish their own privately owned aircraft and crews for the auxiliary’s air arm, and their personal amateur radio equipment for the auxiliary’s communications division.
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Next I’ll discuss the Fire Department:
-In the rural areas (the largest wise) they’re unpaid volunteers
-In urban areas they’re civil servants (similarly to you civil servants they’re underpaid) and augmented by unpaid volunteers.
-and yes, some departments are private contractors as the various gobernmental subdivisions (federal, state, county, city, etc.) find it cheaper than maintains their own department.
In all except the instances except the contractors, fire departments have a rank structure semi parallel to the military
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Finally we’ll cover the police which will have to be divided into some broad categories
-Federal:
—-Under the Justice Department the cops are federal civil servants
—-Under the Department of the Interior the park rangers (yes, many of them have police authority) are also federal civil servants (generally overpaid and glorified baby sitters for tourist)
—-Under the Department of Agriculture the cops (Game Wardens) are also federal civil servants (these do more to earn their pay as they encounter much more risk encountering illegal wildlife smuggling)
—-Under the Post Office the cops are still federal civil servants but do little to earn even the badge, much less the pay.
Now for state level police: (be advised, this is extreme generalization and some states have combined some of these departments)
—-State Police/Highway Patrol are the vanguard of most statewide forces . They are state civil servants and pay varies widely from state to state
—-State Fish & Wildlife Officers are state civil servants and likewise their pay varies widely from state to state Some states have combined this department with the Highway Patrol and others have combined it with the Park Police (Florida combined it with both the Park Police and the Marine Patrol)
—-State Park Police/Park Rangers are also state civil servants (not all states give law enforcement authority to Park Rangers)
—-State Marine Patrols where they exist are also state civil service
—-Private contractors engaged to provide armed security officers at low threat state owned properties rather than detailing an officer (no these are not civil service)
ALL State agencies are augmented by unpaid volunteer Reserves and/or Auxilliaries
-Lastly I’ll cover local and rural agencies/departments:
—-In incorporated cities there are a variety of departments. Some cities select and hire a Police Chief which h would be a local. I I’ll servant while other cities elect a Marshal which would NOT be a civil servant by definition although for all intents and purposes, yes, he would be. All lower ranking officers or deputies would be civil servants and pay and training varies widely even within the same state.
—-In rural areas (counties in most states: parishes in Louisiana) the sheriff is the head of general law enforcement department, and the deputies are hired “at the descetion of the sheriff.” Quality of pay and training is variable with the department. Again, The sheriff by definition is an elected official rather than a civil servant but also again, that’s a grey line (the operative difference being that elected officials can’t be “fired” but rather have to be eithe recalled, impeached, or relieved by the Governor with a court order) All deputies are local civil servants.
—-ALL local agencies have the authority to augment with unpaid volunteer reserves and/or auxiliaries and almost all of the larger department do
—-Many southern and western states still have Constables. This is almost always an elected official who serves the next lower rural division in a county (variously called a beat, a district, or some other term in different states) His or her authority is full police powers although his /her primary function is serving summons, subpoenas, warrants, etc. and furnishing security for Justice Court (formerly called the Justice of the Peace and roughly equivalent to your Magistrates Court) In most states he receives no real pay to speak of. Rather he gets a small expense allowance to buy and maintain uniforms, weapons, ammunition, and equipment (equipment such as the emergency lights for his car, sirens, radios, radar guns, etc) The last tIme I checked in Mississippi (about 5 years ago) that allowance wasn’t around $5000 on initial and relelection. The other “pay” he receives is about $0.40 per mile when serving papers. Mileage computed either from the courthouse to the point of service (when accepting papers directly) or from the nearest post office (when papers are mailed to him for service.
—-Yes, again at this level some police departments or agencies are private contractors and again it’s because contracting is often (usually) cheaper than maintaining a civil service department.
Edit to add: at the federal level at least one private security company hfull status as law enforcement with full arrest powers. That is the Pinkerton Detective agency because they’ve always had the contracts with the various private railroad companies as the “railroad police” but only while on duty and only those employed in service to a railroad company. Elsewhere, namely in the state of Nevada, ALL private security officers regardless of employer have full recognition as police officers (but only whole on duty) And no, none of those have any civil service status whatsoever nor much in the way of minimum training requirements.
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Actually we aren’t really talking about what each country spends as such. At least I’m not. Rather about what individuals spend. That will vary widely here obviously but I suspect our egos will cause the sort of uptick on procedures that I doubt are covered by the NHS (although their costs most likely skew any comparisons presented by the media. Procedures such as liposuction, facelifts, nose jobs, and other elective cosmetic surgeries. Of course that’ll also skew the totals of what we spend as a country.You are both wrong. The us and the uk for standard healthcare spend about the same, likewise spain and italy. The us does have very expensive high end healthcare and spends more per person on average. The NHS is nothing to be proud about anymore, scandinavia and germany have far better healthcare. I never understood why the big hooharr Danny Boyle made of it at the london olympics opening . France has better healthcare, Cuba also, but Cuba hung on to their doctors unlike India, whose greatest export is heathcare proffessionals, leaving india with a doctor shortage. We really should make do with what we can train in England and stop immigration that drains other countries.
List of countries by total health expenditure per capita - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
But if you want to know how much countries spend on healthcare for the average Joe look at the beds avaliable i'd reccon.
List of countries by hospital beds - Wikipedia
@Corso does the NHS cover IOL?
Discarded PPE is ending up polluting the oceans 
I know it's a pandemic, but surely we can do better than this ?
I know it's a pandemic, but surely we can do better than this ?
'The masks you throw away could kill a whale'
As the world battles the Covid-19 pandemic, more and more protective equipment is ending up in the sea.
www.bbc.co.uk
That's ok , You're Air Force , so you are already crippled by a misplaced delusion of grandeur complex.
No we absolutely can't. Couple of years ago it was our joint 50ths and our silver wedding anniversary and we'd saved up and splashed out big time on a 'holiday of a lifetime' I woke up about 6am on my 50th and wandered out onto our balcony to have a bit of a contemplation about getting to 50 etc. We were slap bang in the middle of the Bay of Bengal, no land for at least 500/600km in any direction. I looked down in to the water and saw a poly bag float by... then a plastic water bottle... every 10 or 20 seconds or so you would be able to see some form of plastic trash in the ocean....
Went back to bed for another hour or so a wee bit sad.Whatever we do as a 'developed' nation won't count one little bit against what's happening in less developed nations like India and China. We have been through our 'dirty' period of history but they have still to get through theirs and although they may learn some stuff to mitigate it, it will have a huge eco impact for many many years.
You think? I think we've got a long way to go before we can say we have been through our dirty period. We tackle the easy ones but let lots slip by because it's too difficult. This is a photo of farm silage plastic waste on a farm near me - there are thousands of farms all over the country with just as bad or worse. The wind blows it all over the countryside and no-one collects it. The river banks around here are littered with farm plastic waste that is saddening.
But we digress (again
).
Compared to the crap we used to pump into the atmosphere and rivers, we have come a fair way, not that there isn't still a load we need to do!
I sincerely hope you've reported that to Natural Resources Wales Broch.You think? I think we've got a long way to go before we can say we have been through our dirty period. We tackle the easy ones but let lots slip by because it's too difficult. This is a photo of farm silage plastic waste on a farm near me - there are thousands of farms all over the country with just as bad or worse. The wind blows it all over the countryside and no-one collects it. The river banks around here are littered with farm plastic waste that is saddening.
But we digress (again
View attachment 60272
If you haven't yet then the details for reporting it can be found here
One treads carefully in this neighbourhood - however, it is my intension to make NRW aware but I have to do it anonymously
One treads carefully in this neighbourhood - however, it is my intension to make NRW aware but I have to do it anonymously
All reports are treated with strict confidentiality and any personal details are never given out but I can understand why you'd want to do it anonymously
Was just talking to my mum about plastic pollution and we were bemoaning that while we in the UK have been (largely) trying to "recycle" and that our behaviour has been shaped by the assumption that it isn't so bad because we are "recycling". Meanwhile...our "recycling" is simply getting shipped to South East Asia and getting dumped by the road side, or burned.
Similarly, our industry has cleaned up in part because we are no longer actually doing the dirty industry here, we are out-sourcing to China, India and Korea.
Similarly, our industry has cleaned up in part because we are no longer actually doing the dirty industry here, we are out-sourcing to China, India and Korea.
Once, not that long ago, I was very negative about the NHS and sang the praise of the US system. My grandparents in the US, having paid insurance all their lives with very little need to claim, were extremely well looked after in their final years. Better I think than they would have been in the UK. Certainly more responsively. In contrast, when my father suffered with kidney stones in the UK, our US friends were shocked and horrified at both how long it took to get a diagnosis (weeks of him literally screaming in pain) and then months before he had treatment. Responsiveness was dire. Turning up to attend a meeting with a consultant 15 miles away, only to learn the 
had been on holiday a week and wouldn't be back for another week.
On the flip side, my UK grandmother died of leukemia and years later my parents told me how, had she been in the US, it would have ruined us financially. My dad never had a job with really good medical cover while we lived in the US, and by the time he had those kidney stones, he was in his mid 60s, so retired anyway. I doubt we would have had the gold plated service that my grandparents had. My more recent experiences with both NHS and UK private care show that if you can pay, you can get fantastic service here, and that much of the problem with the NHS is the administration organisation, not the medical practices. I wish we had a better service, there is certainly room for it, modeled on other countries in Europe. However my admiration of the US system has been severely tarnished having learned about doctor/pharmaceutical deals that drove nation wide opioid addiction, the butt covering use of expensive diagnostic testing at every opportunity that leaves people with huge bills, that can only be paid if they are employed, or pay expensive insurance, the denial of care by insurance companies and the need to make choices based on relationships between hospitals and insurers. For every story about the NHS not prescribing an expensive drug, there will be as many or more of people in the US being unable to afford the drug they have taken for years because the price gets bumped up (like insulin).
I believe that the NHS has the potential to evolve and improve and I think there is widespread desire in the people and the government to see it run more effectively, we just don't know how best to do it. I look at the US system, and read comments about it, and it seems a lot of people in the US do not see room for improvement in their system. They wax on about how their doctors are the best, that motivating doctors with money is clearly the best system, glossing over the hundreds of low profile tales of woe with either high profile exceptions, or I'm-alright-jack personal accounts. It makes we want to push back on them. Every bit as much as I want to push back against people saying the NHS is the best in the world....its just that not many people here are so myopic and insular as to think that.
Now with the pandemic we see the US system challenged in a new way that shows cracks that were not so apparent before. Doctors there have complained about inconsistent handling of the disease from one area to another, even in the same state. Everyone is independent, so they all make up their own rules. Then there is the for-profit model, that makes (some) of the public distrust the truth of what the hospitals tell them. That people believe there are lies for profit...but that working for profit is best now seems very strange to me.
Chris
had been on holiday a week and wouldn't be back for another week.On the flip side, my UK grandmother died of leukemia and years later my parents told me how, had she been in the US, it would have ruined us financially. My dad never had a job with really good medical cover while we lived in the US, and by the time he had those kidney stones, he was in his mid 60s, so retired anyway. I doubt we would have had the gold plated service that my grandparents had. My more recent experiences with both NHS and UK private care show that if you can pay, you can get fantastic service here, and that much of the problem with the NHS is the administration organisation, not the medical practices. I wish we had a better service, there is certainly room for it, modeled on other countries in Europe. However my admiration of the US system has been severely tarnished having learned about doctor/pharmaceutical deals that drove nation wide opioid addiction, the butt covering use of expensive diagnostic testing at every opportunity that leaves people with huge bills, that can only be paid if they are employed, or pay expensive insurance, the denial of care by insurance companies and the need to make choices based on relationships between hospitals and insurers. For every story about the NHS not prescribing an expensive drug, there will be as many or more of people in the US being unable to afford the drug they have taken for years because the price gets bumped up (like insulin).
I believe that the NHS has the potential to evolve and improve and I think there is widespread desire in the people and the government to see it run more effectively, we just don't know how best to do it. I look at the US system, and read comments about it, and it seems a lot of people in the US do not see room for improvement in their system. They wax on about how their doctors are the best, that motivating doctors with money is clearly the best system, glossing over the hundreds of low profile tales of woe with either high profile exceptions, or I'm-alright-jack personal accounts. It makes we want to push back on them. Every bit as much as I want to push back against people saying the NHS is the best in the world....its just that not many people here are so myopic and insular as to think that.
Now with the pandemic we see the US system challenged in a new way that shows cracks that were not so apparent before. Doctors there have complained about inconsistent handling of the disease from one area to another, even in the same state. Everyone is independent, so they all make up their own rules. Then there is the for-profit model, that makes (some) of the public distrust the truth of what the hospitals tell them. That people believe there are lies for profit...but that working for profit is best now seems very strange to me.
Chris
I managed 4 minutes before I got fed up and had to get back to work, apologies if it's another point you are trying to make.
This is true for all cold, flu and I'm sure a lot of other virus and shouldn't be a surprise for anyone. However the vast majority of the risk is from coming in contact from the 'macro' droplets on surfaces rather than the airborne 'micro' droplets. Telling people to wash their hands often and well is a great way to eliminate the majority of the risk with a simple message. I don't think there was anyone saying these didn't pose a risk, it was a question of mitigating the biggest risk as quickly and easily as possible. Inhaling them will always be a risk. Why is it better to meet outdoors, it's mainly because all sizes will be distributed quicker outdoors than in..? Also a question of the viral load you'd be sooking up, airborne is a lot less of a risk than having your hands covered in the stuff.
Was this your point?
This is true for all cold, flu and I'm sure a lot of other virus and shouldn't be a surprise for anyone. However the vast majority of the risk is from coming in contact from the 'macro' droplets on surfaces rather than the airborne 'micro' droplets. Telling people to wash their hands often and well is a great way to eliminate the majority of the risk with a simple message. I don't think there was anyone saying these didn't pose a risk, it was a question of mitigating the biggest risk as quickly and easily as possible. Inhaling them will always be a risk. Why is it better to meet outdoors, it's mainly because all sizes will be distributed quicker outdoors than in..? Also a question of the viral load you'd be sooking up, airborne is a lot less of a risk than having your hands covered in the stuff.
Was this your point?
There are several points. The WHO have denied aerosol transmission and said the virus travels in larger droplets from coughing or sneezing, not in the water vapour of our breath. Also, the aerosol particles can float around for many days, not a few as we’ve been told.
The majority of people out in public still aren’t wearing masks.
I agree, the videos are a bit boring and I go days without catching up on developments, I just thought it interesting. I did manage to watch the whole thing rather than 4 minutes before becoming bored, but I admit it’s often hard work watching too much about C-19. @Chainsaw you found the time to ask me if I was trying to make ‘another‘ point. I didn’t express an opinion apart from posting a video that you didn’t need to comment on because you didn’t watch it. You seemed to have more fun laying down the gauntlet and asking me to justify what you consider to be rather tiresome and old news.
Finding the disease is more gaseous than particulate and can remain a threat while in the air far longer than on surfaces. 6 microns is smaller than the smallest pollen particle, so the disease is airborne. It’s not crashing into stuff and becoming inactive, it is spreading more easily than previously thought, and can be lifted from surfaces by evaporation. No single measure will prevent the spread, so of course hand washing and sanitisation of surfaces is sensible, but it is worth knowing and worrying about tiny airborne particles that survive in the air for days are becoming more concentrated. As the particle slowly evaporates, it still holds the same amount of virus. Please don’t firstly apologise for asking if I’m trying to make a point but you’re a bit bored of a video and decide to go back to work, and then condescendingly (as I read it), ask me if your comment was my point. Of course it wasn’t, the more we know that is factual, the better off we’ll be.
Congrats on the mandatory mask wearing in your country, I wish our government had done the same ages ago, but their vile behaviour is expected and easy to ignore. Luckily there are many individuals in England who didn’t need to be told and have been wearing masks in public places for weeks already. A bit of common sense and a handful of brain cells is all that’s needed, it’s shocking how many don‘t get it.
The majority of people out in public still aren’t wearing masks.
I agree, the videos are a bit boring and I go days without catching up on developments, I just thought it interesting. I did manage to watch the whole thing rather than 4 minutes before becoming bored, but I admit it’s often hard work watching too much about C-19. @Chainsaw you found the time to ask me if I was trying to make ‘another‘ point. I didn’t express an opinion apart from posting a video that you didn’t need to comment on because you didn’t watch it. You seemed to have more fun laying down the gauntlet and asking me to justify what you consider to be rather tiresome and old news.
Finding the disease is more gaseous than particulate and can remain a threat while in the air far longer than on surfaces. 6 microns is smaller than the smallest pollen particle, so the disease is airborne. It’s not crashing into stuff and becoming inactive, it is spreading more easily than previously thought, and can be lifted from surfaces by evaporation. No single measure will prevent the spread, so of course hand washing and sanitisation of surfaces is sensible, but it is worth knowing and worrying about tiny airborne particles that survive in the air for days are becoming more concentrated. As the particle slowly evaporates, it still holds the same amount of virus. Please don’t firstly apologise for asking if I’m trying to make a point but you’re a bit bored of a video and decide to go back to work, and then condescendingly (as I read it), ask me if your comment was my point. Of course it wasn’t, the more we know that is factual, the better off we’ll be.
Congrats on the mandatory mask wearing in your country, I wish our government had done the same ages ago, but their vile behaviour is expected and easy to ignore. Luckily there are many individuals in England who didn’t need to be told and have been wearing masks in public places for weeks already. A bit of common sense and a handful of brain cells is all that’s needed, it’s shocking how many don‘t get it.
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