The Covid19 Thread

[santaman2000]

........US Optimism
The infection data is a load of hype. The media are just trying to scare us. Alone of all the educated people of the world, we can see through these lies. We don't really have many infections here (and neither does anyone else). The concerns about long term health effects are over blown. There is no good reason to change anything about our lives or way of doing things.

US Pessimism
There is no stopping the virus. While the infection rate data today is all hype, one day it will be real because the infection will reach almost everyone on the planet, only then will herd immunity put an end to the pandemic. It is all inevitable.


What I don't get is how people in the US will know when to change from thinking all the infection data is hype to seeing their predictions of continued global infections are coming true.

Again, not quite. We do believe the infection rates are high. We just don’t believe they’re important because wider use of testing only shows that those tested are infected but it does absolutely nothing to change how many were infected for months before the general public even heard of this virus. Nor does it change anything about the majority of those infected being asymponmatic (rather it seems to prove it)

The comment on pessimism is a bit closer to accurate but with a slight caveat. While the “control” measures (delaying measures) actually do slow it to some degree, there’s absolutely no way they can be sustained for the years it would take to completely isolate the virus as Toddy hopes. We reopened our economy. We will recluse it. You WILL reopen yours as well. So will every other nation. The virus will spread again and some will blame the reopening as being premature (possibly with some truth but as I said, we can’t sustain closures for a year or more) Others will blame the end it ability you mentioned (which will be true either way)

 

[Tengu]

My Best friend died because he couldnt afford healthcare...

I am Biased. Is that OK?

 

[santaman2000]

Don't lose faith Chris, there are good Americans out there. I was speaking to one on Thursday (he was cute and used to be in the army). Brighy as a button and had a world view that is entirely reasonable.

He can’t be too bright. He went Army. That usually means his scores were too low for the Air Force.

It seems to me that once you've added up how much you pay in tax + health care "subscription" (be it tax or insurance)+ fees for municipality services like bin collections etc, it pretty much comes to a similar percentage of the income for a given family, regardless of whether it's through taxes or fees.

Probably true if the American example lives in Taxachussets or Kalifornia Or the surrounding areas.Not if they live in the vast majority of the country though. Particularly troubling is your reference to “municipality” services. It assumes we think living in municipalities is normal.
arly

I am suee that for every child who had a problem with the nhs you can find, i can find somebidy with insurance who was bankrupted by healthcare costs in the US, even though they had insurance. Here is my first, a cyclist who fell off his bike.

How an insured pro athlete ended up with $250,000 in medical debt

Professional cyclist Phil Gaimon crashed last June. Even though he had insurance, he became yet another insured American facing surprise medical bills with the potential to bankrupt. Here's how something like this happens.

uk.finance.yahoo.com

Actually no. I have a great deal of personal experience with family a member with extremely high medical bills and no insurance. A one time fiance’s daughter had over a $1/2 million in medical bills and no insurance (no job) when a jacka$$ dropped a football sized rock off the bridge and into her face as she and her BF were driving under. It shattered their windshield and hit her straight in the face. It took months of surgeries to rebuild her face and nasal passages and racked up the enormous bill I mentioned. No insurance, no job, and she wasn’t on one of the government programs. So what happened? They various doctors, clinics, and hospitals involved all sent her bills for long enough that their own “nonpayment” insurance paid tham minimum costs and they wrote off the rest. No, it did not affect her credit at all either (Medical bills don’t count on you credit score, nor do they count as a bankruptcy claim)

But more importantly, Alphie didn’t have “a problem.” Rather his very rights to have his family decide his care were usurped. It’s not the “quality of care” that was the most agregious problem but the very assumption by the government that they had that authority. That’s inevitable with government control and it’s entirely unacceptable.

 

[santaman2000]

My Best friend died because he couldnt afford healthcare...

I am Biased. Is that OK?

Yes it’s Ok to be biased. Losing friends or family hurts. As I remember you mentioned this on another thread and I believe you said he had cancer? My question was, and is, why didn’t he qualify for one of the programs we’ve discussed? I assume he was too young for Medicare (although he would also qualify if disabled) it if he was unemployed or underemployed he would have qualified for Medicaid. The only reason my finave’s daughter didn’t apply for Medicaid was because she’d just finished nursing school and was going to get a job (with the normal employer based insurance) when she and her BF returned fro vacation. They were enroute home when the incident happened.

 

[Toddy]

@santaman2000
There was no hope for that bairn, only medical machinery was keeping him 'alive' and at the end of the day that's not kind or in his best interests.
His parents are deeply religious, and believed that they'd get a miracle.
The Doctors have a duty of care for their patients, and when that care no longer benefits the patient it must end. In this case it needed to go to court to end, and then the parents wanted to take him home, fine, but without medical intervention he'd die. The whole time this was going on the parents were pleading pathos, and asking for money for yet another treatment, in a country that charges for medical care, and grieving in the public eye and slating the hospital and it's staff, the NHS and the courts.
The child was brain dead, they needed a psychologist to help them understand, not a publicist trying to keep a story in the public eye and threatening doctors and nurses.

Tell me ? would an American hospital have sent the child home with the necessary machinery ? would they have demanded the bill paid first ? Would the American parents have accepted that there was no hope earlier than this couple who knew that there would be no cost but the horrendous emotional nightmare, to them?

Alfie Evans case - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

without the political lens.

As for your statement...... "and of itself is far too horrendous a warning against the evlis of even beginning to allow the governemtn to get its foot in the door of private decisions "

Tell me, where do you stand then on child abuse ? do you mean then that that's a 'private decision', re parental care, or should society not get involved at all ?

We know ours is fallible, but it doesn't force folks into bankruptcy or poorer medical attention, and drugs, at point of care, it doesn't 'ambulance chase' and it doesn't make decisions based on miracles and raising false hopes in parents in a truly awful situation.

 

[santaman2000]

@santaman2000
There was no hope for that bairn, only medical machinery was keeping him 'alive' and at the end of the day that's not kind or in his best interests.
His parents are deeply religious, and believed that they'd get a miracle.
The Doctors have a duty of care for their patients, and when that care no longer benefits the patient it must end. In this case it needed to go to court to end, and then the parents wanted to take him home, fine, but without medical intervention he'd die. The whole time this was going on the parents were pleading pathos, and asking for money for yet another treatment, in a country that charges for medical care........

Still missing the point. Whether further (or different) treatment would do any good is not the government’s decision to make. Nor the doctors.’ A doctors job is to examine, diagnose, treat (with permission) and advise. The ultimate decision belongs to the patient or his/her family alone. Either the court erred in its judgment or the law itself is flawed. As I said the last time we discussed this, had it been my child the headlines would have been much, much different.

 

[SaraR]

Particularly troubling is your reference to “municipality” services. It assumes we think living in municipalities is normal.

Feel free to replace the term with whatever local/lowest level authority that determines what services you can't get out of paying for, be it a service provided by said local authority or some company.
For example, here in Wales we pay for rubbish collection through the council tax which is a fee tied to each domestic property. In Sweden we paid a specific company to empty the bins but you only had very limited options for frequency and volume. Different methods but similar outcomes.

 

[santaman2000]

.......Tell me ? would an American hospital have sent the child home with the necessary machinery ? would they have demanded the bill paid first ? Would the American parents have accepted that there was no hope earlier than this couple who knew that there would be no cost but the horrendous emotional nightmare, to them?

Alfie Evans case - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

without the political lens.........

What American parents would have accepted varies just as wildly here as it does there. It’s also irrelevant. The fact is that Alphie’s parents did NOT accept it and government interfered with their decision.

Yhere is no view anywhere without a political lens. Not even on wiki.

Would an American Hospital have released him? Of course. They’d probably strongly object, but in the end a cop would have escorted the family out if need be.

 

[santaman2000]

Feel free to replace the term with whatever local/lowest level authority that determines what services you can't get out of paying for, be it a service provided by said local authority or some company.
For example, here in Wales we pay for rubbish collection through the council tax which is a fee tied to each domestic property. In Sweden we paid a specific company to empty the bins but you only had very limited options for frequency and volume. Different methods but similar outcomes.

You’re still missing the point. Outside municipalities we generally don’t have those services much less pay for them. Nor for the most part do we want them. We burn our own garbage at home in rural areas. We provide volunteer fire departments. We have our own water wells and pumps and our own septic tanks (all at home) Our property taxes is generally used only for the school system and the police force. Even most cities the only additional public service funded form property tax would be the Fire Department.

My property taxes last year totaled just over $400: a bit over $200 on the home here in Crest owe Florida (I get homestead exemption on the first $25,000 of value) and about $200 on the 73 acres farmland in Covington County, Mississippi

 

[santaman2000]

......Tell me, where do you stand then on child abuse ? do you mean then that that's a 'private decision', re parental care, or should society not get involved at all ? ......

Against it. However I suspect we have a vast difference in what we deem child abuse. Corporal punishment is not abuse. Nor is a parent deciding on his or her child’s medical care or education. Nor are they subjects for government interference.

 

[Allison McKenzie]

He can’t be too bright. He went Army. That usually means his scores were too low for the Air Force.

Can't believe you think cute army guy is dumb, he is not. He is a hero. And, you only need an ASVAB of 36 to be in the airforce. An ASVAB of 50 roughly correlates to an IQ of 100 (i.e nothing special).

 

[santaman2000]

Can't believe you think cute army guy is dumb, he is not. He is a hero. And, you only need an ASVAB of 36 to be in the airforce. An ASVAB of 50 roughly correlates to an IQ of 100 (i.e nothing special).

Yes that’s all you need to get into the Air Force as a cook, or security forces (the Air Force’s Army)

 

[Allison McKenzie]

Just checked, he has a degree in power electronics. Not as good as physics, but respectable. Certainly not dumb.

 

[santaman2000]

.....His parents are deeply religious, and believed that they'd get a miracle.
...... the parents wanted to take him home, fine.......
......., they needed a psychologist to help them .......

Sounds suspiciously like the old Soviet “re-education” system.

 

[santaman2000]

Just checked, he has a degree in power electronics. Not as good as physics, but respectable. Certainly not dumb.

Actually that probably is as good as physics. Certainly more useful. And more apt for either a Navy or Air Force career.

 

[SaraR]

You’re still missing the point. Outside municipalities we generally don’t have those services much less pay for them. Nor for the most part do we want them. We burn our own garbage at home in rural areas. We provide volunteer fire departments. We have our own water wells and pumps and our own septic tanks (all at home) Our property taxes is generally used only for the school system and the police force. Even most cities the only additional public service funded form property tax would be the Fire Department.

My property taxes last year totaled just over $400: a bit over $200 on the home here in Crest owe Florida (I get homestead exemption on the first $25,000 of value) and about $200 on the 73 acres farmland in Covington County, Mississippi

If you don't have to pay them they're clearly not included in fees you can't get away from paying.

I think you're missing my point, which was that some one living in the US seemed to me to end up spending roughly as much of their salary on keeping their every day lives going as they would if they were living in a comparable place in Western Europe. The incomes and outgoings may be individually very different but people in the same 'prosperity bracket" seem to be as squeezed or well off financially either side of the Atlantic.

I wasn't arguing that the US was cheaper or more expensive than the UK, more musing over the universality of certain economics.

 

[Nice65]

Can't believe you think cute army guy is dumb, he is not. He is a hero. And, you only need an ASVAB of 36 to be in the airforce. An ASVAB of 50 roughly correlates to an IQ of 100 (i.e nothing special).

Yeah, that was a crappy thing to say really. I’ve no idea about the hierarchy of the services, but calling someone’s friend thick? And them have to argue it and present proof, come on...

How I see the Americans at the moment. I realise that is a broad and sweeping statement and does not relate to most of them. Because they’re creating memes and jokes on social media highlighting their fellows stupidity. Which are pretty funny

 

[Paul_B]

I can't believe anyone has used that poor child's suffering as an argument against a tried and tested medical, legal procedure. Are there are legal procedures in America about medical matters too? Certainly not government interfering. It was the doctors and hospital getting a legal review of the situation to me decide if the best interests of the child is according to medical opinion of one of the world's best pediatric hospitals iirc (GOSH). A hospital that sees a lot of medical tourism from around the world I might point out. The courts decided the parents wishes weren't in the best interests of the child. A legal decision based on evidence from many be sources not just the doctors involved in the treatment.

That case but widely reported and as usual American outlets saw things through am American eye only. That biased news link is a rather milder version but still biased and missing a lot of very significant facts that do not agree with their American view of the world.

Without restarting that topic the child had no medical options left that would make him better only prolong suffering. But it suited American culture and myopia when it comes to medical systems to sell the lies about gubernatorial interference (wrong) and suited the Christian right to use that case. How much money did that raise for that one? I bet there was a lot left over for other Christian right causes.

@santaman2000, sorry but your bringing up of that story to debate an online topic makes me worry more than ever about your country.

 

[santaman2000]

Yeah, that was a crappy thing to say really. I’ve no idea about the hierarchy of the services, but calling someone’s friend thick? And them have to argue it and present proof, come on.............

Inter service rivalry has always encouraged those jokes. If you’ve ever served you already know that. As to the “hoerarchy” of the services, it’s purely by age. The three independent military services tank first (according to their age)
-Army
-Navy
-Air Force
-Next comes the Marine Corps (actually the oldest but it’s not I dependent as it’s a division that belongs to the Navy)
-After that comes the Coast Guard (older than the Air Force but lesser in hierarchy because it’s not in the Department of Defense
-Next comes the Merchant Marine (again mainly because it’s not in the Dept of Degense, but to be honest, it’s also the youngest mention so far)
-Finally come the two youngest uniformed services (although frankly I don’t know which outranks the other)
—-National Oceanic and Atmospheric Afministration
—-Public Health Services

 

[santaman2000]

I can't believe anyone has used that poor child's suffering as an argument against a tried and tested medical, legal procedure. Are there are legal procedures in America about medical matters too? Certainly not government interfering. It was the doctors and hospital getting a legal review of the situation to me decide if the best interests of the child is according to medical opinion of one of the world's best pediatric hospitals iirc (GOSH). A hospital that sees a lot of medical tourism from around the world I might point out. The courts decided the parents wishes weren't in the best interests of the child. A legal decision based on evidence from many be sources not just the doctors involved in the treatment.

That case but widely reported and as usual American outlets saw things through am American eye only. That biased news link is a rather milder version but still biased and missing a lot of very significant facts that do not agree with their American view of the world.

Without restarting that topic the child had no medical options left that would make him better only prolong suffering. But it suited American culture and myopia when it comes to medical systems to sell the lies about gubernatorial interference (wrong) and suited the Christian right to use that case. How much money did that raise for that one? I bet there was a lot left over for other Christian right causes.

@santaman2000, sorry but your bringing up of that story to debate an online topic makes me worry more than ever about your country.

I can’t fathom that the event was ever allowed to happen. Whatever chances he had or didn’t have weren’t the purview of government. It’s so completely foreign to any standard of civilization.

Do we have legal procedure in the US regarding medical decisions absolutely. The most high profile cases here also usually involve who has the authority to make the decision whether or not to “pull the plug” It ALWAYS in EVERY case comes to whichever living family member is the closest legal relation. Ranked in the following order:
1st = Spouse (if any)
2nd = Adult children of the patient
4th = Parent of the patient (if the patient’s children or minors or if there are no children)
NEVER is it the doctors or the government unless the patient is entirely without living family.

The doctors function (as I said earlier) is to examine, diagnose, advise, and treat (with permission) It ends there. Today mentioned the family was religious. That,Evans they as had the right to religious counsel. Anyfaith counselor’s function is equally limited (listen, research, and advise—-bit NEVER their function to decide) Parents function is to digest the best advice and make the decision. Government’s function is to protect the parents’ right to decide and enforce their decision. Period. End of debate. Non negotiable.

The American ”view of the world” is as it’s always been: that Protecting the individual‘s rights is the single most imperative function of the government. PROTECTING those rights: not usurping them. It really doesn’t matter what lens you view it from, that truth will never change.

The fact that ANY country believes government decisions take precedence over parental decisions makes me worry more than ever for the world. The fact that the populous of those countries accept that thinking only compounds that worry.