Placing the person in a blanket/sleeping bag as a wrap (to let in heat, fire) once they are " totally undressed" and giving "warm"(not hot) liquids (restore core temperature) with wind shelter, if possible a drying fire is our practise. CG :yo:
Survival Tip????
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RovingArcher said:
Hi there, I thought this might be a good first post for me, as I have a medical background and (nearly) went down with hypothermia last year!
You are correct that warming a casualty too fast can be harmful. In hospital, we aim to warm a hypothermic patient by about 1 degree per hour. This is usually done by running warm fluids in IV, using a warm air blanket, filling the bladder with warm saline (not pleasant, but has to be done!) and in extreme cases by running warm saline in through chest drains/abdominal drains.
The problem with warming too fast is that (if the patient has been hypo for a long time) metabolites build up in the peripheries because of anaerobic respiration. When the body is heated it reacts by vasodilating and all these metabolites rush back to the heart mucsle, causing arryhthmias and/or cardiogenic shock, leading to death.
In a prehospital setting, the best action to take is as others have said here. First check the casualties ABC's then remove them from the environment, get them in dry clothes and a doss bag and then warm them with hot packs or body heat. Most importantly though, send for help as soon as you can and keep monitoring their consious level and vital signs.
Hope that helps!
Good first post,but,can you give me the laymans of "vasodilating"?
P.S Tabber is a good handle for a medic.
P.S Tabber is a good handle for a medic.
According to the med. dictionary, it is Inducing vasodilation, which is the widening of the lumen of blood vessels .
Lumen of blood vessels?...
Does vasodilation mean that your veins expand and you absorb the things that have built up during your hypothermic condition?
Does vasodilation mean that your veins expand and you absorb the things that have built up during your hypothermic condition?
Basically yes, your veins and arteries expand, taking in fluid from the tissues surrounding them. The metabolites (which form in the tissues because of lack of oxygen) 'follow' the fluid and enter the circulation, ending up at the heart where they can affect the heart muscles contacting.
I don't think it is much of a problem in a survival situation (ie in a shelter in a cold environment) as you wont be able to raise someone's core temperature very fast without extra help. Pretty much anything you can do to warm them up is a bonus, for example dry clothes, in a sleeping bag, into your car with the heating on and drive to help (if you were out for a walk, say). A bigger danger would be burns from putting the patient too close to a fire or putting hot packs too close to the skin.
I don't think it is much of a problem in a survival situation (ie in a shelter in a cold environment) as you wont be able to raise someone's core temperature very fast without extra help. Pretty much anything you can do to warm them up is a bonus, for example dry clothes, in a sleeping bag, into your car with the heating on and drive to help (if you were out for a walk, say). A bigger danger would be burns from putting the patient too close to a fire or putting hot packs too close to the skin.
this is somthing i had to do many years ago serving in ireland as a young rifleman, we were on a 4 day patrol and on the first day i managed to fall into a bog it must have been about -5, with only a wool jumper and spare socks to change into you can imagine i was abit cold.That night i was in a bit of a mess and looking at my mate cossy in his maggot and the thought of becoming a block of ice i jumped in his sleeping bag with him and pulled my maggot over the top of us, had a great sleep.The body heat dried my clothes out and i sure that had i not done this i would have been in a bad way by morning.If you have to do this with someone of the same sex keep your hands to your self
charley beale said:I know this isnt entirely a bushcraft question but am going to post anyway as my curiosity gets the better of me. I've heard that a valid method of staving off hypothermia is to climb into a plastic bag with another naked human. Has anyone ever tried this and would it work?
And would being naked actually help?
I think this has been pretty well covered here but having been there I would say that you definatley do not want to be naked in a polybag as it wil touch your skin and conduct your body heat away!
Remove anything that is keeping you cold, like wet trousers and get in your sleeping bag if you have one, if not get yourself insulated from the cold as best you can, but don't stay in contact with the bag.
My personal preference for poly bags is sit in it with the bag upside down and a little hole cut for your face. That way the warm air get trapped better, you can still see whats going on outside and you can minmisise the area of contact with the ground.
I am not sure where I got that from, I think it may have been a Ray Mears book
Anyway last time I got Hypothermia was capsizing a dinghy in the North Sea without a wetsuit, sitting in a poly bag wouldn't have helped as I would have just drifted off to Holland
uppy_dog
D
Don'tkillbill
Guest
In november 2005 I spent 6 days training in first aid at glenmore lodge with the British Association of Ski Patrollers; this question of naked in bag was asked. We were told that it was a bad idea as unless you can very slowly heat the person up and sustain the slow reheating process you could put the person in more danger by reheating them to fast and being unable to sustain this they slip into a further hypo session. It was better if possible to evacuate without rewarming statistically as more seemed to survive.
This is for severe hypothermia, not mild
"After carrying out first aidtreatment, ensure that the casualty is well insulated from further heat loss. Do not attempt the rewarming of a severely hypothermic casualty- also if breathing is not detected do not attempt CPR, treat tha casualty as alive and evacuate to hospital promptly." BASP manual 13:2
Basically the life is better preserved in a semi cryogenic state and is safer than incomplete unsustainable attempts.
Jamie
This is for severe hypothermia, not mild
"After carrying out first aidtreatment, ensure that the casualty is well insulated from further heat loss. Do not attempt the rewarming of a severely hypothermic casualty- also if breathing is not detected do not attempt CPR, treat tha casualty as alive and evacuate to hospital promptly." BASP manual 13:2
Basically the life is better preserved in a semi cryogenic state and is safer than incomplete unsustainable attempts.
Jamie
I appreciate that this is a valid question but please make sure it stays to the point. So far it's gone better than I thought it would considering the potential for being sidetracked, thanks for that. Don't let it degenerate.
As I understand it, the current thinking on this is, if at all possible, warm up the core and try not to warm up the limbs. As rightly noted, warming up the limbs results in rapid vasodilation (opening of the constricted blood vessels) and the cold blood stored in the limbs will return to core of the body, lowering the temperature. If you are severely hypothermic already, this could be fatal.
The moving of hypothermic people is very dangerous. As I recall, the Navy were losing people that were extracted from the sea in a hypothermic state. They realised that because they were hanging in a standing position, the blood was moving around their body and this did them in. That is why they lift them lying down in that cagey thingy now.
The current thinking on this is to make sure the core doesn't get any colder, but don't do anything, I'll check but I think they're even boycotting hot drinks on this at the moment. The idea being is that the core will sort itself out if it can stay warm but any outside disturbance can redirect bloody to other parts of the body and not where its needed,if kept warm and given time it should recover.
Completed an emergency aid course for the outdoors last week....
Current medical theory states that you should not 'actively re-warm' a patient.......prevent the casualty from getting any colder.....remove wet clothes, get them into dry ones, 'warm not hot' drinks are good....get them into a tent.....warm moist atmosphere is best.....then get them out of there
if you try to rewarm them, then you will encourage blood flow away from the core to the extremities....causing big problems....
obviously if you are days from help, then you may have to try to rewarm them.....try to do it at the same pace as they cooled.....get them out of there..
stevo
Current medical theory states that you should not 'actively re-warm' a patient.......prevent the casualty from getting any colder.....remove wet clothes, get them into dry ones, 'warm not hot' drinks are good....get them into a tent.....warm moist atmosphere is best.....then get them out of there
if you try to rewarm them, then you will encourage blood flow away from the core to the extremities....causing big problems....
obviously if you are days from help, then you may have to try to rewarm them.....try to do it at the same pace as they cooled.....get them out of there..
stevo
Strangely enough, my older brother is in Norway at the moment and he once told me that they don't drink hot drinks, but warm drinks. If they introduce hot drinks into their body, the core temp. rises and the body thinks it is hot. Therefore, it starts to sweat and you lose more heat that way. It's sort of the reverse of a heat stroke victim having a jerrycan of freezing cold water poured over his head, not good and don't ask me how I know that!!! (If I wasn't a gibbering wreck after that incident, I reckon I would have decked the Troop Commander that did that!)
We were not totally naked and she was very cold and there were other people watching, but by god it was fun! (for me anyway)
Most of the info seems on the money. When someone goes down with hypothermia;
Stop what you're doing
Seek shelter from (ALL) the elements, and make sure the casualty is not in direct contact with the floor (unlike a certain US Air Force "Arctic" instructor who tole us he would keep warm by 'thermalising' as the ground was the only thing in nature that gives out more heat than it takes away! Why is there an arctic at all, then?!)
Strip of wet clothes (but not naked)
Gently rewarm using an indirect heat source (so body heat in a sleeping bag would suffice, but if the other person is naked, they run the risk of also becoming hypo)
Give warm, sweet drinks (never hot)
Monitor the rest of the group!
Spamel, you're refering to 'Post rescue collapse' which is indeed cold blood being forced into the core, which drops the temp more and can lead to death. Biggest danger of this is when the casualty has been in the water for some time.
Stop what you're doing
Seek shelter from (ALL) the elements, and make sure the casualty is not in direct contact with the floor (unlike a certain US Air Force "Arctic" instructor who tole us he would keep warm by 'thermalising' as the ground was the only thing in nature that gives out more heat than it takes away! Why is there an arctic at all, then?!)
Strip of wet clothes (but not naked)
Gently rewarm using an indirect heat source (so body heat in a sleeping bag would suffice, but if the other person is naked, they run the risk of also becoming hypo)
Give warm, sweet drinks (never hot)
Monitor the rest of the group!
Spamel, you're refering to 'Post rescue collapse' which is indeed cold blood being forced into the core, which drops the temp more and can lead to death. Biggest danger of this is when the casualty has been in the water for some time.
F
Freds Dad
Guest
You do not need to be butt naked but if your patient (warmee) is put in a survival bag or sleeping bag then both the person doing the warming (warmer) and the warmee need to have as few items of clothing on their chast and stomach as would be suitable.They just have to undo their coats or jackets to remove the insulation effect. They then hug each other, front to front. This then warms the patients/warmee's vital organs which are, sort of, at the top and front of the trunk. The rest of their bodies are kept clothed. If, howerver, we have a patient who is soaked then remove any wet clothing. A WARM drink is preferable to hot as if it was too hot it may cause the patient to go into shock if the core is too low. Most other things about hypothermia such as shelter is common sence. I once had hypothermia. I went to a party on my motorbike and forgot my waterproofs. It was a long trip of 40 miles on a cold winters night. Half way there I was caught in a down pour but carried on and endured the birthday party soaked to the skin. when I rolled out of the hall there had been a frost and all the roads where icy. I then had to travel the 40 miles home at 15 to 20 miles an hour from Havehill to Ipswich. By the time I got home i was hypothermic. I teach the chest to chest method to my Scout troop. The girls always squeal when i tell them that it's best if one of the boys get in the bag with them. funnily the boys are not keen either. No doubt by the time they are 17 things will all seem different.
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