stick or full tang???

[sargey]

this is an off shoot of the fellskap thread, i've copied and pasted some of the relvant comments and it's all a bit confusing, but please copy and add any relevant comments i've missed...

Stick or full tang is courses for horses.

The difference is the handle material and quality of work - a stick tang shoved into a predrilled handle (mora classic) that is then used with a baton is liable to split. A full tang with a badly fitted handle rivetted on using poor materials and used with a baton is liable to have one of the scales fall off.

If such happens a stick tang can have the handle replaced simple by forcing it into a prepared piece of wood giving you a replacement handle while a full tang can be repaired by wrapping the tang with rag or some such - one problem here is the broken scale cannot be replaced by you in the field and will probably need machining to repair once back in civilisation too.

As was pointed out if working in cold climates a stick tang is better but having said that in the colder parts of the world you'd probably be wearing gloves anyway.

As I say courses for horses - choice of a knive should be made using experience, knowledge of its intended uses and materials as well as its looks.

I hate to ask this but why does anyone want a scandi blade with a full tang??

the scandinavians have been using puukko's in the wilderness for an extreamely long time and always use a stick tang

you can hardly argue that they dont know what makes a good knife!

its more than strong enough (the scandinavians are known for using their knives for things we would only do with an axe!) and its lighter in the hand and more comfortable

Trond has never made a full tang before for a good reason, there no point!

only the british and the americans insist on a full tang and in doing so we show our ignorance

Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 7:21 pm Post subject:

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i suppose for many it's simply a woodlore clone at a more achievable price. that ray mears bloke seems to have a pretty good idea of what works on a camping trip and he's seems to be about the only survival expert who actually uses the knife he designed.

the other factor with a stick tang vs full tang is the question of heat transferal. you don't want to be hanging onto bare metal in the subarctic regions. so a full tang is more of a disadvantage for scandanavian folks than it is for us.

for me personally, i want a full tang, exposed a little at the pommel for splitting wood that's wet on the outside, but maybe dry inside, for firewood. it's easy enough to split short lengths of wood by laying the knife across the spine and batonning. if you don't have a saw to make short lengths, you can stick the point of the knife into the side of the branch and hammer on the pommel, when the knife has pierced the branch, you start hammering down similar to the first method. usually, the wood breaks at a convenient point, and you get alot more wood split for less calories. both techniques are easier if you have three arms. you could hammer the point through the firewood and into a log, then start beating the wood up the knife. it's a trick i learnt from old jimbo, and one well worth trying out.

I was interested to read Stewarts post about stick vs full width tang. Surely swords, cavalry sabres etc have a stick tang, and are likely to undergo rather greater forces and stresses during use? I suspect the Scandinavians have been right all along.

Quote:
Sargey i may have the wrong end of the stick here but are you suggesting that a stick tang is no good for battoning?


nope, not at all.

even your bog basic mora will withstand a fair amount of batoning on the spine or back of the blade. what i was referring to is batoning on the pommel end of the handle. like you would if it was a chisel. if your stick tang was peened over an end cap it might be ok, but if you had a knife where the wood completely enclosed the tang i think the handle could get damaged. whilst you'd still have a blade and tang, i don't think it'd be a great idea.

quite a long time ago a few of us were debating the usefulness of mors kochanski's survival knife toughness test. you baton a knife into a tree and stand on it. the general consensus was that this idea was bunk. i thought it was harsher than it sounded, so i went out to try it. the only knife i had that was up to this test was a chris reeves sable IV, one of his hollow handle one piece range. i chickened out with all the other knives.

the Lapps and finns use stick tang knives for this type of batoning and the lapps have over come this problem by having a metal cap over the pummel (all finnish and lapp knives have tangs which pass right though the handle)

if you look at the lapp puukko in the reveiw section you can see this

(or if someone explains how you add apicture to a post i'll put one up)

the frosts deck knife is not a fare representation of a stick tang
the deck knife only has a 2/3 tang!

if you try mors kochanski's test with a well made finnish stick tang knife it will cope with it no problem at all

have you got a copy of mors' book? i still reckon this test is bunk! what he actually says is hammer a knife 4cm into a tree at ninety degrees to the grain, then stand on the handle. even with the reeves knife i had it in line with the grain. the next problem is hammering. i was using a big old beech baton, with full on double handed swings. then the next question is how much wood do you need to support your weight.

i do not believe that my trusty isakkii jarvenpaa (?sp) puukko would survive this test. seeing how much the reeves knife flexed while supporting my 85 kilos with the blade vertical was frightening enough.

this test is simply a very silly idea, IMO. i have no doubt that a good quality stick tang knife is plenty robust enough for any practical bushcraft demands. i like the idea of having a test to prove a knife is tough enough, i just don't think this is it.

I was just about to take a Lapp puukko out to the woods and film it being hammered into a tree and being jumped on

If this test is bunk though what would you suggest?

what do other people think of the test?

could somone supply the whole discription of the test?

the only reason I argue in favour of a stick tang is that many people see them as inferior (this may be because they have not used a high quality well made stick tang)

well their not, anything you can do with a well made full tang you can do with a well made stick tang (and by well made stick tang i mean one that passes right though the handle and is burnt in, not just slotted in)

the benifits of a full tang is no bare metal or pins/pin holes and a much lighter knife (the result of this light weight is people thinking they are not strong)

the blacksmiths in finnland have never made a full tang knife, i just wondered why you asked a scandinavian blacksmith to make you a full tang knife when his skill is making stick tang

which would have been perfectly suitable for the task

Just as many in europe laugh and roll their eyes at the size of the cars the americans drive, the scandinavians roll their eyes at us brits and americans with our heavy over the top full tang knives

it was the scandinavians that taught us that we did not need big 6inch bowie style blades and enlightened us to the flat grind yet we do not follow their example with the tang

Ok that is just about the longest post i have ever written

I'll shut up and stop ranting now

Picture you posted shows a tang that is incredibly wide! Most Scandinavian knives have a tang that is conically shaped and forms a point at the end ( or at least this is how I make them)

This actually means that the tang is fixed both physically and chemically into the shaft and I would doubt very much that the wood would split that easily.

Of course the taste of the pudding ……..

As far as this knife goes, it's just taste, it's what people wanted, so it's what Trond made. There's nothing wrong with either design, but the laps and fins also make knives that way because to some extent, they are locked into tradition. People buy them, because they want a traditional Scandi blade. If they started making Bowies, then they'd loose all their trade, cos there are a gazillion and 1 bowie makers in the rest of the world. At the end of the day, it's commercial enterprise and traditional art which drives em. Scandi blades aren't inherantly better than anything else. You pick the tool for the job you want. The American market is different to the UK. For bushcraft techniques, they are good blades, not necessarily the best though. There are a huge variety of blades on the market that will do quite well.

It wasnt the scandi's who taught us the benefit of their blade shape, it was Ray Mears & his preference for it for the tasks he was doing. But it's not a must have design, it's just one of many options.

 

[sargey]

it seems to me that there're two questions on the go, stick tang or full tang? and how tough is tough enough?

in page 111 of my copy of mors kochanski's book "bushcraft" he says

"as a test of strength, a good knife should not break when driven four centimetres into a standing tree at right angles to the grain, and the handle bears your weight as you stand on it."

stuart i'm not sure what 90 degrees to the grain is. does he mean with the blade flat? when i tried it i kept the blades vertical. but i'd love to find out if a puukko would put up with it. mors is a great champion of the mora knife.

there are two/three? parts to this test. one is the lateral stress component, blade is fixed stand on handle. two is hammering onto handle, and three is penetration, the pointier the blade the less whacking required.

my other question is how much wood do you need to support your weight? even if the knife is ok, will it just dig a big chunk out of a tree come flying out and stick in your leg?

if you stood on the blade very close to the tree you'd introduce sort of shear forces, with less moment the knife would have more chance of surviving, but that's not what he says...

i realise the frosts deck knife is not a true example of a stick tang, i was trying to show how hard it was todrive four centimetres of blade into a tree.

so on the lapp IJ puukko, there is a peened over cap under the polished end cap?

cheers, and.

 

[Doc]

Put it another way- has anyone actually broken a stick tang Scandinavian knife? With 'normal' use?

Incidentally I have a Frosts laminated Mora knife (the red wooden handle/plastic sheath job - looks like the Erikson one in Mors' book) and it feels rather less robust than my Brusletto laminated stick tang knife.
Still not broken either though.

Dare I suggest that someone who has just spent two hundred quid on a knife might not hit it as hard as one costing a fiver? (....ducks for cover..)

 

[Doc]

Just to thicken the plot, there are stick tangs and stick tangs. Look at the pictures of blades for sale on the Brisa site bellow. The Helle blades have a very narrow tang. I like the look of the (remarkably cheap) Lauri progressively tempered which have a very broad stick tang. Hardened to Rockwell 63 apparently.

http://www.brisa.fi/start3.html

 

[sargey]

Dare I suggest that someone who has just spent two hundred quid on a knife might not hit it as hard as one costing a fiver? (....ducks for cover..)

oh it was getting whacked alright! the cheaper knives got off lightly, well, apart from that deck knife. but you should see how much a knife will flex when hit baseball bat style with a 2-3 inch thick lump of beech :shock:

i've never managed to break a stick tang knife, mostly 'cause i baby them more. but i've snapped a few points off in my time.

cheers, and.

 

[Hoodoo]

sargey, I've always thought of that as the one big piece of bs in Kochanski's otherwise fine book. Of course, it just might work with a mora if you are a skinny runt of a person...

There is nothing else in his book that would indicate why a knife has to be able to withstand such lateral stress and I would not expect my moras to be able to. Larry Dean Olsen surely does not make such claims for the flint knives he favors which just goes to show, it's what you know, not what knife your carry.

 

[Martyn]

sounds like an utterly pointless exercise to me. So long as the knife is totally happy being abused under normal conditions, why worry?

 

[chad234]

I have used a few mora knives rather harshly. The reason is that they are cheap. My other abuser is an old hickory kitchen knife that I use to cut sod with.

I have broken the tip off a mora (Red handle #1) when I was using it as a drill, spinning it between my palms. Worked well, but the tip broke.

I broke the tip off another mora prying out a knot in some wood.

I have never had a problem with the handle not being tough enough.

 

[Dave Barker]

Just to thicken the plot, there are stick tangs and stick tangs. Look at the pictures of blades for sale on the Brisa site bellow. The Helle blades have a very narrow tang. I like the look of the (remarkably cheap) Lauri progressively tempered which have a very broad stick tang. Hardened to Rockwell 63 apparently.

http://www.brisa.fi/start3.html

The helle and brusletto tangs are not as thin as they look and are almost square. Due to the fact that most of these tangs are designed to be throughgoing, they are fully tempered making then as hard as the blade. I know, I once tried to cut one with a dremmel..... wore out the cutting wheels pdq i can tell you.

For scandi knives ( and Please can I make it clear that not all scandi knives are PUUKKOs) with a tang that is hidden in the shaft, it is usual for it to be 2/3 as long as the actual blade ( the maths you can work out yourself.)

Tests like the one mention appear to be a bit harsh, most scandi working knives have a blade length of around 90-95 mm and often smaller. Factory laminated blades will likely be stronger than hand forged cos there is less chance of welding faults.

What good does standing on a blade do anyway?? A knife is for cutting etc, not to be used as a step........... Sorry guys, but it horses for sourses and user preference i think. Hidden tangs are generally lighter than full tang, but I would argue that they are not neccessarily weaker because of this.

 

[MartiniDave]

Compromise time!

When I get my Micarta Woodlore (full tang) I will carry it WITH my Helle Eggen (hidden tang). How happy I shall be :-D :-D :-D

Dave

 

[Stuart]

A whole forum discussing stick tangs

how happy am I :-D

I have seen a mora frosts snap at the handle during a woodsmoke course

however the mora forst is only a 2/3 tang though not the type of full length rat tail tang with a preened over end at the pummel that we are discussing the merits of

the mors kochanski test is strange and quite brutal but i will try it this weekend with a £28 lapp puukko

sargey yes the tang does pass right though the handle to the polished plate at the base on the lapp puukko

 

[coutel]

Interesting topic.

This is one of the styles of handles I make.
Its a hidden tangthat goes the entire length of the handle, but I thread the end of the tang to make a bolt. The pommel/end cap has a nut brazed/welded on the inside. The end cap then screws down tight trapping the handle between the guard/bolster...a very strong sealed construction and a comfortable balanced handle.

Kevin.

 

[chad234]

Wow, very nice. I like that handle a lot. What kind of wood is that? Some kind of burl? Gorgeous!!

 

[coutel]

Wow, very nice. I like that handle a lot. What kind of wood is that? Some kind of burl? Gorgeous!!

Thanks Chad. Its actualy Big Maple Leaf Burl.. cut and shaped it from a block I have.....It starts out a pale colour (like pine) so I darkened it then sanded it to highlight the burl. Vacum soaked it in tung oil for several days then buffed and waxed.

This is a photo of the entire blade...(thanks to the BB image gallery)

Kevin

 

[sargey]

stuart, how did you get on with that test? any pics?

cheers, and.

 

[Stuart]

Hi Sargey

yes it went well and we have video!

the quote below is from the leuku puukko thread

"Hi Larry, we managed to persuade Stuart to put a Kellam Lapp Puukko to the test at the weekend. He was not at all bothered about battoning it through whatever wood we could find for him to split. The Puukko coped with no bother, and the blade proved it could take all we could throw at it.
Stuart also mentioned a larger blade from Kellam that will be available shortly, a think its about 6 inches, so should be good for chopping. I dunno what its called, something finnish."

The test was carried out in front of the following BCUK moderators Jack, Jamie, Tony, ED, and roving rich

after trying out the mors kochanski's test for real I agree that the test is utter bunk!

we hammered the blade into the tree at ninety degrees to the grain as described in mor's book (across the grain rather than with it)

however i challange anyone to hammer a blade 4 cm into a tree nintey degrees to the grain (prehapes we were supposed to use a softer wood but the book makes no suggestion as to what wood to use, so we used hazel) after much hammering with a large wooden mallet we had acheived only 3cm, we then found a larger heavier mallet and expended a great deal of energy getting it to just under 3.5cm, eventually the wood of the handle cracked up one side, even hammering directly on the tang we were unable to drive it in any futher

we decided to continue the test with only 3.5cm of the blade in the tree
standing on the handle and even jumping up and down on it did nothing to damage the blade

when removed from the tree the blade was examined and the handle compeatly removed, no sign of damage was present on any part of the blade (it was still able to shave the hairs off rich's arm)

Roving rich kept the blade and i believe intends to use it as a rehandling project

 

[Ed]

after trying out the mors kochanski's test for real I agree that the test is utter bunk!

Why do you think this?

If the mors test is just to prove the lateral strength of the blade, then the lapp puuko passed with full marks.... a tough little blade.... I'm not surprised the handle cracked... you did give it a good hammerin'

Stuart, where is the video going up?


Ed

 

[Matt Langley]

Stuart-

I'm very glad you've reported back about this. Having bought a good few blades that look alot stronger than my recently purchased Lapp Puukko, I was quite concerned that the flat grind was a compromise of the strength of the blade. While I'm very pleased with how the knife performs in terms of cutting ability (more so than any other blade I've owned) I was very concerned that it was far more delicate than my other knives. This test has done much to eleviate thoughts of the blade snapping, from my mind. I will use it with more confidence from now on.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[sargey]

well frankly i'm astounded! but your experiences mirror mine in the hammering dept. that alone will ruin many knives. i'm amazed that the knife wasn't bent with someone bouncing on the handle. shame the handle didn't survive though.

i'm beginning to think that the test is not as daft as all that. it seems that the test takes into account several different areas of compromise. a slimmer knife will penetrate better, but you'd expect it to be less robust.

maybe i'll have to look into it more. thanks mate.

cheers, and.

 

[Stuart]

i feel that the test is utterly brutal

the reason i think its rubbish though is:

1. it does not state what wood you should be using
2. it does not state a weight
3. pounding a knife in 4cm 90deg to the grain is almost impossable!
without using prehaps a sledge hammer (or at least it is on a hard
wood)

the test also fails to state what failure is, does the handle cracking mean that it failed the test? on a full tang knife i would expect at least one scale to come flying off the amount of force it takes to get the blade in, would that be regarded as a failure?

it certainly puts the knife to the test, but it is not a controlled test

my job (before i started kellam) involved testing and developing equipment for the british MOD, so i am quite picky about tests being controlled and well designed, this test isnt


i'm not sure how to put the video up, i'll e-mail it to anyone who knows how to put it up