Snugpak fail in the New Forest and knife talk

[johnboy]

I was told that by one of their reps at the outdoor show a couple or 3 years ago when I was discussing sleeping bags with them. I've since seen it on the web but I can't find where I saw it.

I should have added the 24 yo is also about 11.5 stone so if you're older or female you need to look to a slightly higher rating.

They should be rating the bags using the correct standard...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

However it seems it's a option for manufacturers to use... I wonder if they do use the standard as they don't mention I any where on their website. Also it doesn't apply to Military sleeping bags....

 

[woof]

I have the same bag, but have only ever used it in a tent or hooped bivvy, if its any help, i found it to hot in august !.

Rob

 

[Shewie]

I had the Elite 4 for a couple of years and it's one of the warmest bags I've owned, skinny guy 12.5st wet through

I got rid to swap for down so I could save a few grams but mainly cut the bulk down, if I was going synthetic again I go for the 4 no question

 

[ged]

... unless you have a lot bigger outer bag or purpose made one (ie PHD combi) it prevents the inner bag from lofting properly. Now such an issue on synthetic bags but it is on down ones.

Good point, but if they're about the same size and you use the thinner bag on the inside, it will tend to gather rather than compress so you'll get most of the benefit. Being allergic to down I've never been able to use a down bag so I don't have that problem.

You don't want anything tight when you're sleeping, so if when you're in the bag you're stretching it, and so causing the filling to compress, then you need a bigger one. I'm slim so that has never been a problem for me. The bivvy bags I use are either quite a bit bigger or (in the case of the issue one) a lot bigger than the sleeping bag. Thesedays if it's cold I'll usually use my Jerven bag, which is basically an insulated rectangle a little over 2m x 1m. Sometimes I lose my Thermarest in there.

 

[Shingsowa]

Something that is often overlooked or misunderstood is clothing in a bag.
Getting into a sleeping bag fully clothed will tend to reduce the overall effect of the bag regardless of the rating.
Consider this example: a healthy, reasonably well-fed and non-hypothermic adult gets into a sleeping bag wearing 'outdoor clothes' (trousers, baselayer, fleece, maybe a waterproof). Once they are in the bag, their body heats up the air between their skin and their slightly baggy clothing. The air between their clothing is a lower temperature, and the expensive filling of the sleeping bag doesn't get a chance to do it's job.
Now, if the same person were to go to bed either naked (you need an understanding mate if you're sharing your bivvy!) or wearing a tight-fitting baselayer then the whole system works better. The body heats up the airspace between the skin and the insulation of the bag and the sleeper feels warmer.
To add extra insulation to a bag you add it to the outside (i.e. lay your jacket on top of your sleeping bag). Try not to compress the loft in any way as it vastly reduces the efficiency of the bag. With regards to sleeping mats, I've found the 'hollow' mats like the neo-air and the Alpkit equivalent to be MUCH colder than a standard, foam-filled inflatable mat.

Quite simply, to sleep warm, sleep naked. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's worked for me in the arctic, at altitude and in bivvy bags in most mountainous areas of the U.K...


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=53.137226,-3.333434

 

[mountainm]

Once they are in the bag, their body heats up the air between their skin and their slightly baggy clothing

So the space immediately next to the person is nice and warm?

 

[The Lord Poncho]

Something that is often overlooked or misunderstood is clothing in a bag.
Getting into a sleeping bag fully clothed will tend to reduce the overall effect of the bag regardless of the rating.
Consider this example: a healthy, reasonably well-fed and non-hypothermic adult gets into a sleeping bag wearing 'outdoor clothes' (trousers, baselayer, fleece, maybe a waterproof). Once they are in the bag, their body heats up the air between their skin and their slightly baggy clothing. The air between their clothing is a lower temperature, and the expensive filling of the sleeping bag doesn't get a chance to do it's job.
Now, if the same person were to go to bed either naked (you need an understanding mate if you're sharing your bivvy!) or wearing a tight-fitting baselayer then the whole system works better. The body heats up the airspace between the skin and the insulation of the bag and the sleeper feels warmer.
To add extra insulation to a bag you add it to the outside (i.e. lay your jacket on top of your sleeping bag). Try not to compress the loft in any way as it vastly reduces the efficiency of the bag. With regards to sleeping mats, I've found the 'hollow' mats like the neo-air and the Alpkit equivalent to be MUCH colder than a standard, foam-filled inflatable mat.

Quite simply, to sleep warm, sleep naked. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's worked for me in the arctic, at altitude and in bivvy bags in most mountainous areas of the U.K...

Yes, this was a recent debate in another thread. I don't really follow the science here- there are only two different temperatures that matter- the temperature of the body, and the temperature of the air/ground outside the bag. More insulation between the body and the outside air can only assist warmth of the body, not detract from it (unless the clothing is damp, promotes sweating, or is bulky enough to compress loft).

There are a lot of people who feel that you sleep warmer without clothes (possibly due to individual situations encompassing one or more of the situations in my caveats above?), and seemingly an equal number who feel that clothes help .

The only way to find out what works for you is to experiment!

 

[ged]

Yes, this was a recent debate in another thread. I don't really follow the science here- there are only two different temperatures that matter- the temperature of the body, and the temperature of the air/ground outside the bag. More insulation between the body and the outside air can only assist warmth of the body, not detract from it (unless the clothing is damp, promotes sweating, or is bulky enough to compress loft).

There are a lot of people who feel that you sleep warmer without clothes (possibly due to individual situations encompassing one or more of the situations in my caveats above?), and seemingly an equal number who feel that clothes help .

The only way to find out what works for you is to experiment!

Good sense from the Lord Poncho.

FWIW my take on it is that the clothing that you've been wearing all day will have some moisture in it. There's no point buying a lot of good quality insulation if you're going to go to bed in damp clothing. I always change into some some dry clothing (which I carry in a dry bag) and dry the damp clothing for the next next day while I'm asleep. That can be by wrapping it around my sleeping bag, inside my bivvy, or wrapping it around a hot water bottle, or hanging it in front of the fire, or whatever. If the dampness isn't too bad, I'll just pull a face when I put it on the next morning.

 

[rik_uk3]

2l plastic bottle full of hot water is a luxury I now indulge in and the water is still very warm in the morning meaning a faster brew

Under a tarp any loose heat is lost and this is where a tent comes really into its own in colder months IMO, it will retain spare body heat. I you do use a tarp then really you need a bivvy bag too.

I've not tried a Snugpak bag but I find the Softie jacket fantastic to be honest.

 

[Shewie]

Something that is often overlooked or misunderstood is clothing in a bag.
Getting into a sleeping bag fully clothed will tend to reduce the overall effect of the bag regardless of the rating.
Consider this example: a healthy, reasonably well-fed and non-hypothermic adult gets into a sleeping bag wearing 'outdoor clothes' (trousers, baselayer, fleece, maybe a waterproof). Once they are in the bag, their body heats up the air between their skin and their slightly baggy clothing. The air between their clothing is a lower temperature, and the expensive filling of the sleeping bag doesn't get a chance to do it's job.
Now, if the same person were to go to bed either naked (you need an understanding mate if you're sharing your bivvy!) or wearing a tight-fitting baselayer then the whole system works better. The body heats up the airspace between the skin and the insulation of the bag and the sleeper feels warmer.
To add extra insulation to a bag you add it to the outside (i.e. lay your jacket on top of your sleeping bag). Try not to compress the loft in any way as it vastly reduces the efficiency of the bag. With regards to sleeping mats, I've found the 'hollow' mats like the neo-air and the Alpkit equivalent to be MUCH colder than a standard, foam-filled inflatable mat.

Quite simply, to sleep warm, sleep naked. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. It's worked for me in the arctic, at altitude and in bivvy bags in most mountainous areas of the U.K...

Amen to that, but I have discovered a few exceptions which have definitely worked for me.

A thin OR Transcendent down hoody, think similar bulk to a Rab Microlight vest. I don't know why but the couple of times I've dozed off with it on in the hammock, I've woken up next morning having been toasty all night long. I think with it being so thin it's still allowing some of the trapped heat in the quilt down to radiate back to my body.
The other layers that work for me are the 200g Ullfrotte base trousers and crew top, the 400g versions make a noticeable difference and actually feel colder in the hammock. The thin terry knit on the 200g is trapping some heat but also allowing plenty to warm up in the down and then be absorbed by the body.

Getting wrapped up in shell jackets, fleeces, polyester base layers or cotton trews/smocks etc will make for a colder night, that's how I've come to learn it anyhoo

 

[mountainm]

Amen to that, but I have discovered a few exceptions which have definitely worked for me.

A thin OR Transcendent down hoody, think similar bulk to a Rab Microlight vest. I don't know why but the couple of times I've dozed off with it on in the hammock, I've woken up next morning having been toasty all night long. I think with it being so thin it's still allowing some of the trapped heat in the quilt down to radiate back to my body.
The other layers that work for me are the 200g Ullfrotte base trousers and crew top, the 400g versions make a noticeable difference and actually feel colder in the hammock. The thin terry knit on the 200g is trapping some heat but also allowing plenty to warm up in the down and then be absorbed by the body.

Getting wrapped up in shell jackets, fleeces, polyester base layers or cotton trews/smocks etc will make for a colder night, that's how I've come to learn it anyhoo

R values are cumulative

 

[Shewie]

R values are cumulative

Which is why the down layer and thin wool works, that heat generated by the clothes next to the skin is allowed to pass to the bag/quilt, in my experience fleece or poly layers or shell don't work

 

[Shingsowa]

It's a strange one, and I think it might become the 'plane on a treadmill' thread topic of bushcrafty-camping-backpacking forums. It MIGHT be complete bunkum, but I know it works for me, my colleagues, climbing partners and I've yet to have a student come back to me and say "your Top-Tip is complete crap". Then again, I may be part of a conspiracy of pro-active nudists trying to get everybody running around the woods in the nud...

On a slightly related note, one of my more diverting activities is 'bodying' for SARDA (if you don't know, it's lying out on a mountainside somewhere creating a smell so SAR dogs can practise finding humans). You tend to get bumped to 3-4 different locations throughout the day, and I've yet to have a training session cancelled due to weather. It's like short-term bivvying; you find your hidey-hole, get out your bivvy bag and lie down and read/sleep/watch films on iphone/watch mountains whilst waiting for the mutt to find you.
For this I use an ex MOD bivvy, jungle bag and those vapour barrier/sleeping bag cover things they used to issue. I'm always fully-clothed in the bivvy, boots on and often without a sleeping mat. I often find it just about warm enough, but after an hour or two you notice the lack of insulation and the discomfort of damp, muddy clothing starts to become an annoyance... Going back to a woodland bivvy with a thermarest, fire and having enough time to make getting undressed worth it seems a luxury after that!

 

[Ivanhoe]

Not trying to insult anybody, but how much had you eaten in the evening?
That is one factor that usually gets forgotten.

Individual preferences amount to much more than one can possibly imagine,
and so does psychological factors also. Just saying...


Hearing that Snugpak uses their own crappy method to measure insulation
capacity makes me mad as hell! There are real ISO norms to be used.

- - - - -

Having said that I must say I'm very impressed by Snugpak in general.
I've got many of their sleepingbags and the Sleeka jacket and trousers.

I even have the Sleeper II sleepingbag, that's made in China and smells
of cat **** when new. I mean, a real crappy budget sack...

Well, I was out with it one autumn, laying free without no tent, up on a
small hill, and in the morning it was completely covered by frost.
So much it looked white and my mate could'nt even se the DPM-print
on the sack. I slept in it only in my underwear. It was only milimeters
between my skin and the ice crystals, but I never noticed it being cold.


I've also slept in a tent with no fire at -23 Celsius and the double Snugpak
I slept in was too warm!

I woke up every hour and had to vetilate
exessive heat!

 

[Ivanhoe]

Hmm, can't edit my post - My initial question was for darrenleroy.

(Not for Shingsova...)

 

[darrenleroy]

Hmm, can't edit my post - My initial question was for darrenleroy.

(Not for Shingsova...)

I just don't get it. I really don't. I was wearing natural layers: a pair of wool socks, long johns, a merino wool undershirt and a fleecy jumper; I'd had plenty to eat and it couldn't have been colder than 3 degrees. I was in a Snugpack Elite 3 that is supposedly warm down to minus five. I'd eaten a full meal (two big burgers). My bag was stored properly to diminish loft loss.

The only thing I can think is that I was using a Thermarest Neo-Air didn't help because it lacks insulation. I was also sleeping under a tarp which is pretty much 'outside'. Also I'm only 5'7" and not overweight. And I had the baffles extended which aids convection of heat. Next time I will try a warmer mattress. I could go naked inside the bag too if some of the posters on here are to be believed, although that concept seems to defy physics.

Either way, it's a learning experience and a night's discomfort can only aid my understanding of what works for me in the field. And I love it!

 

[jackcbr]

Next time I will try a warmer mattress. I could go naked inside the bag too if some of the posters on here are to be believed, although that concept seems to defy physics.

It does seem the daftest thing, but for some reason it works, well at least for me. Boxers and a cotton long sleeve top, nice and toasty. Thing is, as the weather is turning, why not try some options in your back yard. If you get too cold, there's a nice warm bed upstairs.

 

[ged]

I just don't get it. I really don't. ...

You can get acclimatized to cold weather or hot weather. It can happen very quickly, a matter of days, and it isn't just adjusting to cold temperatures. Your body can adjust to extreme heat as well, so it will need to sweat less, conserving precious water. I know someone who moved from Berkshire to San Diego, and he says that it was so hot in the few days after they first arrived that they wondered if they were going to have to move back home. Now he says "it isn't hot in San Diego". He goes to Mexico quite a lot, and he says there are places there where it does get hot.

For most of my life I've ridden motorcycles, mostly in the UK and Europe, and sometimes it seems like it's mostly been in bad weather but I'm not sure that last part is true. I think that riding a bike in winter makes a big difference to how my body reacts to the cold. If I'm throwing the bike around it can get quite physical, and on a cold day the muscles are usually generating enough heat to keep me warm. On a hot day I'll be sweating. But on a long, cold motorway journey with not much traffic to carve through there's little to do but sit there staring at the road. Then I somehow tense most of my muscles, and I grit my teeth and almost hold my breath. I don't know if that's normal or not. I don't ever shiver on the bike, in fact I can't remember the last time I shivered because of the cold, but I think that to generate heat I'm using muscles that aren't normally used that way. I've heard of people doing a few sit-ups in their sleeping bag to generate a bit of heat so they can get warm enough to get back to sleep, it isn't something I've ever felt the need to do but I guess it's worth a try as long as you don't overdo it and get sweaty which would be very counter-productive.

Everybody's different,Aad individually we're different on different days. Sometimes when I'm ill I have a lot of trouble regulating my temperature, and then I can feel very cold or very hot within the space of ten minutes when nothing outside me has changed.

Either way, it's a learning experience and a night's discomfort can only aid my understanding of what works for me in the field. And I love it!

I've always found learning new stuff very enjoyable. It's great that you're enjoying it.

Don't forget that hot water bottle. Curiously enough it's best if it's well insulated, so that it stays hotter for longer. Otherwise it will be too hot at the beginning of the night, when you least need it, and too cold in the early morning when you'd be most thankful for it.

Or find a rock, heat it in the fire and put it in a sack.

 

[Nonsuch]

My Snugpak synthetic bag was very warm when new but I am afraid it has been stored carelessly and is now rather cold. They definitely lose insulation value over time. You don't say if yours is new or not.

 

[darrenleroy]

A few years on with my Elite 3 and I can say I haven't suffered the cold problems I did the one time I complained on this thread. I think a few things in conjunction led to me getting cold. I've slept in a tent and in under a tarp and the tarp definitely is a colder environment due to not being zipped in behind two layers of material with draft reduction. On cold nights under my tarp I make sure to dress up in several layers and also wear a hat. Experience is everything.