Smokeless, undetectable fire?

[Chinkapin]

I disagree that smoke cannot be seen at night. On a clear, starry and moonlit night smoke can sometimes be seen for quite a distance. I have observed this many times.

As was stated in the thread mentioned above by Toddy, a small fire of dry twigs, (which is totally adequate to cook over) built in a Dakota hole, near the base of a tree, preferably, a conifer, will be virtually undetectable. I have built them, they work great, and you can use small green branches for a grill over the hole to set you canteen or whatever on to heat water.

Remember, your goal as I understand it, is camping unobtrusively, not evading Native Americans, or Nazis. It doesn't have to be perfectly smokeless.

 

[tjwuk]

I disagree that smoke cannot be seen at night. On a clear, starry and moonlit night smoke can sometimes be seen for quite a distance. I have observed this many times.

As was stated in the thread mentioned above by Toddy, a small fire of dry twigs, (which is totally adequate to cook over) built in a Dakota hole, near the base of a tree, preferably, a conifer, will be virtually undetectable. I have built them, they work great, and you can use small green branches for a grill over the hole to set you canteen or whatever on to heat water.

Remember, your goal as I understand it, is camping unobtrusively, not evading Native Americans, or Nazis. It doesn't have to be perfectly smokeless.

You are right, any smoke can be seen for some way off. I think though, actually pinpointing where the fire is, especially amongst trees when you try to find it would be more difficult if the light from the fire wasn't present. And then thats only if you can get above the tree line like on a hill overlooking etc.

The only way I could think of effectively hiding the smoke would be to have some form of chimney, or tunnel laid horizontally with spaced holes, letting little smoke out over a larger area.

 

[Martyn]

The only way I could think of effectively hiding the smoke would be to have some form of chimney, or tunnel laid horizontally with spaced holes, letting little smoke out over a larger area.

Dont chimney's have to point upwards? I would have thought that a ground level, horizontal pipe wouldn't draw smoke?

 

[tjwuk]

Dont chimney's have to point upwards? I would have thought that a ground level, horizontal pipe wouldn't draw smoke?

Yes I didn't explain it very well!

You would need quite a long vetical section before the horizontal pieces, or at least slopped. Never tried it mind you.

 

[Chinkapin]

Peter T's suggestion of Hornbeam is right on. It is one of, if not the, hardest woods readily available in the UK and in America as well. It burns relatively slowly, produces little smoke and burns quite hot. Our two hornbeams are not the same species but I believe the American Hophornbeam is probably the closest and would be my wood of choice. It is generally a rather small understory tree here. Not sure about yours.

Ours looks like a young beech tree. The older hophornbeams look like there is muscles under the smooth bark, which of course the Beech does not have. I'm curious as to whether or not your hornbeam has this tell-tale feature.

 

[hog]

Raymondo did mention this in his programme about the Jews hiding from the Germans in the Taiga forrest cant remember which series it was though.

 

[pango]

The Bielski camp was in the Naliboki Puszcza of Belarus.

Some years back I was lucky enough to be invited, by a mate from Warsaw, to take an illicit 5 day trip into the Białowieski Park Narodowy in N E Poland. He grew up in the region and used to go poaching in the forest with his father when he was a boy.

I soon became acutely aware of his stealthiness and discovered after the event that unlicensed wandering in the forest was illegal, as was wild-camping and fire-lighting, and that poaching was punishable by imprisonment. And he was a Big-city businessman!

The vast majority of firewood was dead-wood taken from live trees with a saw-chain and noisy chopping was definitely not recommended. Fires were only ever lit in the early morning and evening, were small and only ever of the driest of hardwoods, a lot of oak but a few other trees I didn't recognise. (I was somewhat perturbed at first that much of the perfectly good wood I collected was discarded.) We filled vacuums in the morning and lunch consisted of bread, cheese and kiełbasa (sausage).

I'd love to go back but have unfortunately lost touch with him.

I may well write a more detailed account to post.

 

[Matt.S]

I may well write a more detailed account to post.

Please do!

 

[Andy woodsman]

I'm no expert, but I can usually smell a fire a long way off, wind permitting. I dont know if you can eliminate that altogether, but I think you can do an awful lot to reduce the amount of smoke by selecting your wood carefully, splitting and drying out damp wood before trying to burn it. You only have to throw one crappy, damp log on there to start a big column of smoke and choke everything out.

There is a rhyme somewhere about the different burning properties of different wood, I can never remember it, so I tend to just stick to what I know works, beech, birch, or any old, dry hardwood I can find. Split the logs down and bake em by the fire first. I think Ash is supposed to be the best, but I never see it round here. Oak is supposed to be good if it's seasoned, but that's pretty rare too. Holly is also good and it's worth remembering that it will burn green. Softwoods like pine are useful for starting fires cos they tend to be resinous. But pine burns too quickly for maintaining a fire and I find it can be wet and smokey.

I think this may be the poem you were thinking of Martyn?

An old woodman's poem to help you decide which fuel to use;
Logs to burn! Logs to burn!
Logs to save the coal a turn!
Here's a word to make you wise
When you hear the woodman's cries.

Beechwood fire burn bright and clear;
Hornbeam blazes too,
If logs are kept a year
And seasoned through and through.

Oak logs will warm you well
If they're old and dry,
Larch logs of pinewood smell
But the sparks will fly.

Pine is good and so is yew
For warmth through winter days
But poplar and willow, too
Take long to dry and blaze.

Birch logs will burn too fast,
Alder scarce at all.
Chestnut logs are good to last
If cut in the fall.

Holly logs will burn like wax,
You should burn them green,
Elm logs like smoldering flax,
No flame is seen.

Pear logs and apple logs,
They will scent your room.
Cherry logs across the dogs
Smell like flowers in bloom.

But ash logs, all smooth and grey,
Burn them green or old,
Buy up all that come your way,
They're worth their weight in gold.


Hard woods for roasting
Apple, Ash, Beech, Birch, Sweet Chestnut, Hazel, Holly, Hornbeam, Larch, Oak and Willow.

Soft woods for boiling
Alder, Aspen, cedar, Hawthorn, Horse chestnut, Lime, Pine, Poplar, Spruce, Sycamore.

This has been a very interesting thread - thanks everyone.

 

[Doc]

The Bielski camp was in the Naliboki Puszcza of Belarus.

Some years back I was lucky enough to be invited, by a mate from Warsaw, to take an illicit 5 day trip into the Białowieski Park Narodowy in N E Poland. He grew up in the region and used to go poaching in the forest with his father when he was a boy.

I soon became acutely aware of his stealthiness and discovered after the event that unlicensed wandering in the forest was illegal, as was wild-camping and fire-lighting, and that poaching was punishable by imprisonment. And he was a Big-city businessman!

The vast majority of firewood was dead-wood taken from live trees with a saw-chain and noisy chopping was definitely not recommended. Fires were only ever lit in the early morning and evening, were small and only ever of the driest of hardwoods, a lot of oak but a few other trees I didn't recognise. (I was somewhat perturbed at first that much of the perfectly good wood I collected was discarded.) We filled vacuums in the morning and lunch consisted of bread, cheese and kiełbasa (sausage).

I'd love to go back but have unfortunately lost touch with him.

I may well write a more detailed account to post.

Please do - it would be good to hear more.

 

[Boreas]

The Dakota fire hole will do the job, but will never be completely smokeless. What the horizontal hole does is add air to the fuel, just like your car's fuel injection add's fuel to the air. For best results face your hole towards the direction of wind travel, and feeding the base of your fire, or what I like to do is build one facing the wind and two others at 90 degrees. like this _|_ . If the wind changes you're covered. Once your fire starts going it will actually draw air in through the hole and create some of it's own wind.

What smoke is is a mixture of unburned fuel particles and the hot fire gases that are also unburned and force it upwards. With not enough airflow there is incomplete combustion, so air channels in a semi enclosed space help a lot. Another factor is enough heat, a semi enclosed space like the dakota helps build up heat, more air will help build up heat and a solid coal base (burn hardwoods) will also help. Water is so good at putting out fire because it requires a lot of heat to turn to steam and leave your wet wood, this serves to sap heat from your fire until your wood has had a chance to dry out. The last thing to think about is fuel, the smaller the diameter of your wood the faster and better it burns. This is because it's surface area to mass ratio is higher, use twigs and I would say less than wrist thick wood. In the extreme, saw dust dispersed in air will actually explode violently because of the same principle.

I don't think you can burn firewood without SOME smoke, but give your fire enough air, heat and good burning fuel and you might get close to complete combustion (no smoke). Now you know a little more about fire.

Note, Smokey the bear says only you can prevent forest fires.

- Make sure the ground you make fire on or in is not peaty or full of excessive organic matter, this can smolder underground for years before starting huge forest fires.

- If you're going to burn under a tree, make absolutely sure you keep the size of your fire small enough that the hot gases cool enough by the time they reach the branches. and keep your fire away from the trunk or roots of the tree. Just excessive heat can kill whole branches of trees and can even ignite it if you're not careful.

This has been a public service announcement from your friendly Canadian Fire Fighter.

PS: That Belarus episode is season 3 episode 1 you can catch it here http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=44989 it only works if you download the veoh web player

 

[shiki_no_uta]

I know it might be a bit too late to say anything about ... but anyway...
I read in another post something about filtering the smoke through a chimney with wet moss or grass. Anybody could post a link to any drawing of the chimney? i think i watched something like this on a video from the spanish special forces , i will look it up and find a link.
In the area where i live, most of the houses have wood heating systems, and many of them quite experimental. So, many don't work very well (included mine). There is a guy who told me a method for starting the stove with no smoke: he told me something about lighting some charcoal from the night before and blowing more pieces of charcoal until they all glow. This way it would get hot, with no smoke, and the chimney would quickly start to make some wind in the desired direction. The guy left for hollydays before i had a chance of asking him to show me the actual method. As soon as he comes back i will ask him for a show off.

what about a smokeless fire starting? i mean with natural materials. any idea? would it ever be possible with a bowdrill kind start??

 

[lannyman8]

Uncle Ray did a bit on the Russian Partisans (i think) who put the chimney under the ground through a very very long pipe, and then filtered through moss sticks twigs etc etc.......

i think this was more of a spead out that get rid of the smoke, the problem is allways the smell anway, you can smell smoke from miles away....

hope this helps.

chris..........

 

[Hedgehog]

How about a wood gas stove? nice dry fuel & no smoke at all (bar maybe a puff at the start for the ignition fire) because you are effectively burning it.

 

[twisted firestarter]

Cooking on charcoal works pretty well, it's a lighter fuel to carry than wood too

 

[rickyamos]

Here is a good page reference the Dakota fire hole:-

http://www.survival-training.info/Library/Firerelatedinformation/TheDakotaFireHole.pdf

Cheers

Rick