Running a Bushcraft Course?

[fishy1]

I had the vague idea of running a course for bushcraft learners, probably in the 12-18 range. Does anyone know if I need insurance, or can I just get by by getting parents to sign a form stating I am not liable for any death or injury arrising? How much would insurance be and how much would it cost? Can I lend the pupils knives, or is this banned, can I let them keep the knifes? Any other pitfalls that I may have overlooked?

Cheers

 

[Toddy]

You need Public Liability Insurance, usuallly the minimum we carry these days is £5million, and to get it you will need to do Risk Assessments and if you are working with children you will need to have an enhanced Disclosure Scotland document too.
If this is a commercial venture you will also need the land owners permission, and he will need Public Liability Insurance too; it's all well and good getting someone to sign away their right to pursue you for damages, but in the event of that actually happening they can still have you charged if you have been negligent and take you to court. Remember this is their child's life...... and e coli 0157strikes as often as a knife slips.

Sorry to rain on your parade so much, but you might find it easier to begin this whole thing by working with a group such as the Scouts or the Army cadets, perhaps the Countryside Rangers you mentioned, who had given you permission to build, might find some way to utilise your abilities and get you started.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[fishy1]

You need Public Liability Insurance, usuallly the minimum we carry these days is £5million, and to get it you will need to do Risk Assessments and if you are working with children you will need to have an enhanced Disclosure Scotland document too.
If this is a commercial venture you will also need the land owners permission, and he will need Public Liability Insurance too; it's all well and good getting someone to sign away their right to pursue you for damages, but in the event of that actually happening they can still have you charged if you have been negligent and take you to court. Remember this is their child's life...... and e coli 0157strikes as often as a knife slips.

Sorry to rain on your parade so much, but you might find it easier to begin this whole thing by working with a group such as theCScouts or the Army cadets, perhaps the Countryside Rangers you mentioned, who had given you permission to build, might find some way to utilise your abilities and get you started.

cheers,
Toddy

I don't believe I would need landowners permission, as commercial activities are allowed to the same extent as non-commercial activites under the right to roam act.

Ahhh! The dreaded risk assessments galore.

 

[Mesquite]

I had the vague idea of running a course for bushcraft learners, probably in the 12-18 range. Does anyone know if I need insurance, or can I just get by by getting parents to sign a form stating I am not liable for any death or injury arrising? How much would insurance be and how much would it cost? Can I lend the pupils knives, or is this banned, can I let them keep the knifes? Any other pitfalls that I may have overlooked?

Cheers

Fishy, first of all I wish you luck with your idea and hope you can pull it off if you do decide to go ahead with it.

I can assure you that you will most definately need insurance and lots of it. Regardless of what a parent has signed if their precious little darling were injured and they thought you negligent I bet you that they'll sue you. Another thing you need to be insured for is if any equipment you use fails you'll be held liable unless you can prove a proper regular inspection took place and even then you still stand the chance of being sued.

Another thing if you're going to work with under 18's or vulnerable people you will have to have is an Enhanced CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check and under new legislation that has to be carried out every 2 years.

As for knives I'm not sure but looking at some of the other bushcrafts schools they do teach safe use of cutting implements and some say they give a carbon knife to partcipants and loan them folding saws.

Other things you have to consider are H&S risk assessments on every activity you'll be doing and record what you've done to minimise potential hazards. Do you have current first aid training, the ratio of instructors/assistants to participants, have your assistants been CRB checked etc etc etc

Basically it's something to look into very, very carefully. What might be an idea is to start with adults and gain some experience with teaching bushcraft before moving onto under 18's. But even if you do that it's something to look into in great depth before actually taking that big step.

 

[Paganwolf]

I think every person that gets young people into the out doors and interested in our nature should be given a medal of the highest order, but this sort of venture can not be just a vague idea, working with young people is a massive responsibility and risk assesment after risk assesment needs to be done, the questions you ask are of a fundimental kind and i think you should resurch this more on a higher plane, as stated becoming a youth leader eg ACF ATC Scouts etc and live the problems of a youth leader whilst protected by the umberella of an established youth organisation would be a wise move before a vague whim turns into a nightmare.

 

[Toddy]

I don't believe I would need landowners permission, as commercial activities are allowed to the same extent as non-commercial activites under the right to roam act.

Ahhh! The dreaded risk assessments galore.

Fishy I can assure you that you will need to be very certain of the area you intend to use for this, there are quite specific guidelines on appropriate group sizes and the like. Suppose I owned 200 acres of woodlands and someone decided to run a course on it, and someone was injured, say perhaps falling over a broken down fence. The landowner can be taken to court for damages because they did not attend to the fence and see to it's safety should someone decide to 'fall' over it.
It's not as straightforward as you might assume to just appropriate a piece of land for your own use.

The right to roam is the right to have responsible access, not to just do as you like, where ever you choose.


Toddy

 

[fred gordon]

As a Ranger organising events for the public I agree with whats been said. You need to be sure you are bombproof for this. Perhaps a discrete ask of someone who already does this sort of thing might answer a thing or two. Good luck anyway.

 

[fred gordon]

As a Ranger organising events for the public I agree with whats been said. You need to be sure you are bombproof for this. Perhaps a discrete ask of someone who already does this sort of thing might answer a thing or two. Good luck anyway.

 

[British Red]

There are a number of other things you will need as well as insurance

Clearly the relevant First Aid Qualifications will need to be obtained - I don't think a basic FAW will cover it - although if I were you I would seek specific advice. Clearly you will need food hygeine certficates if you plan to offer food & drink. I would also imagine that some of the Mountain Leader type qualifications would be advisory as would a training qualification - people who know often do not know how to instruct,

Obviously you will have to consider the basis of your organisation - were you planning to carry on as a sole trader or would you set up a company? Clearly you need to consider the tax implications as well as the ability to cover costs

Red

 

[SAS_MAN]

If you are working with children you will also need to be vetted.

 

[fishy1]

I think, given the vast amount of paperwork, this will remain a dream for a while.

 

[Toddy]

It's not the paperwork that's the problem, it's really acquiring all the information on how to deal properly with groups, not just how or what to teach them. It's the responsibility aspect thing again. The paperwork just proves you've done the background work.

You could make a very good start on this by making sure you have the relevant training; the first aid training for instance, maybe find out about the mountian leadership courses and how they are structured. You are on-line so you have access to search engines, contact SNH and get hold of your own full copy of the Access Guidelines and find out about the legal requirements to do the sort of thing that you were thinking about.

Dreams are good things, but to make them reality takes work, and I agree with Paganwolf, anyone who encourages young folks to actually get out and be part of the real world is to be commended.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Path Finder]

You will also need a child protection policy and be fully up to speed on how to recognise signs and what to do if a child discloses abuse to you... also if you have people working for you they will need to have a CRB check done which you pay for.

While the idea is good I feel you really need to fully research your idea before putting it into action.

Perhaps offer to do some for free with some of the bigger bush craft schools or as already suggested the cadets etc.

I for one as a father would be very suspect of anyone asking to sign away my rights? we always asked for a parent or parental locus to be present on our courses, so they could take care of their own off spring.

Hope this helps... Good Luck

 

[Bernie Garland]

Not posted much lately,and its threads like these why i don't bother,to much of the politically correct **** covering for me, ive no qualifications to teach youngsters but all the kids round here, come round to see me for tuition on ancient fire lighting, mushroom recognition,bird recognition,rabbiting, vermin control, things i and my friends were taught by my father and uncles,sadly its nearly all gone. and to teach these things now you have to have all these new qualifications, what a sad state were getting to,so glad i was brought up when things were real and life was life, not wrapped in bubble wrap,but if the **** ever does hit the fan, some of us will be able to survive,and the health and safety and political correctness will have been blown out the window, and all the do gooders will be the same,dog eat dog for survival.

Bernie

 

[Toddy]

My life is very real Bernie, I assure you.
I too work with children, in my case from one end of the country to the other. The paperwork I endure simply proves to everyone's satisfaction that I am who I say I am, that I am of good repute, that I am capable and responsible, even where the parents or teachers of the children I work with know me or not.

Survival? I'll do fine, thank you, whether it's the present reality of life in the 21st century or regardless of how life changes in the future. I firmly believe that what 'can't' change, dies.

Thankfully most of us do not see things degenerating into barbarism. Probably why this is a bushcraft forum not a survival one.

Toddy

 

[Tony]

Let's not have this thread deteriorate, the pointing of fingers of political correctness is sometimes perfectly correct and at others irritating.

There is a vast difference between showing a few of the locals on a casual basis and running courses which is the original question. We all show people what we know, my friends children ask me and many others to show them stuff and the parents encourage them, it's great fun and i do think that there's nothing wrong with it and I would also encourage this organic and spontaneous learning and sharing.

On the other hand, a course that's been arranged as such for a group of 12-18 year olds, while noble, is a completely different kettle of fish and it does incur responsibilities and considerations that one must at least be aware of even if they're not followed which is a personal choice.

A lot of people that share skills on a casual basis change to a more organised structure and as soon as they do that there's different rules that do apply.

I would suggest keeping to friends and people you know and be careful about what you get them doing, cordage and the like is a great starter. I also totally agree that a great way to move forward with this is to join up with an organisation and interact through them, they're covered and if you’ve got good skills they'll utilise them and there's a good chance that bushcraft skills can be taught, that's a win win for everyone.

 

[Dunelm]

Given the recent news of damages awarded to a child injured on a bouncy castle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/7389775.stm) I'd say that a belt+braces approach to H&S is advisable. Unless you have a spare couple of million to fork out.

 

[MitchelHicks]

If you wish to introduce bushcraft to the younge I would consider the Duke of Edinburgh awards scheme. They would teach you what you need to know about leadership of partys and would probably pay for it as long as you help with courses. They would also cover your insurance however I do not know if bushcraft is an option however I have heard that it had been put forward a few years ago so it may be starting out as an option now or in the future. If not maybe you could pursuade them to run course in Bushcraft because I wish I would have been able to learn about it when i was doing D of E and so did alot of others.

I think instructors are voluntary positions but it could be a good place to start out and learn the ropes without having to spend loads.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[SMARTY]

Folks the Institute for Outdoor Learning offers good advice and they are very willing to help with your questions. as to whats right, wrong, politically coorect or fluffy.....just stay inside the law including H & S legislation. We would all like to go out there and pass on the "old ways" but the bottom line is you just cant. Remember a lot of the old skills are illegal for a start. Trapping techniques, fire lighting, plant collecting....and the list gos on. These regulations are not there to stop you, but ensure the people you are passing on the knowledge are protected along with land owners, the country side and you. In my experience a waver only lasts as long as there is not an incident (and potential claim).
it is not impossable to overcome these hurdles, there are lots of individuals and organisations that do on a daily basis. .

 

[woodstock]

Fishy, first of all I wish you luck with your idea and hope you can pull it off if you do decide to go ahead with it.

Another thing if you're going to work with under 18's or vulnerable people you will have to have is an Enhanced CRB (Criminal Records Bureau) check and under new legislation that has to be carried out every 2 years.

Your right Mesquiete but he would need to have been cleared on the POVA register before he does anything else