Rewilding Britian - increasing biodiversity

[Goatboy]

Dave, it's more the flavour of and implications of their argument that seem to want humankind out of the equation in re-wilded areas. If humankind hadn't been involved a fair few of those beloved environments would no longer exist as we hold them back in stasis in a way nature wouldn't.
So saying I think as a species we have a fair way to go to balance up the see-saw (teater-totter to our American chums).
And as I admitted I was just being a bit flippant as I'm having a weird day. Sorry for any offence implied.

Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.

 

[Dave]

seems like you're getting wound up by my posts,

Yes, I guess i was a bit because it almost read to me, like you were attempting to deliberately scupper the need for wild animals to have a place in the world, in every post! By being critical of every argument for it. Which Im sure you werent. You are just very good at arguing a point. And a bit relentless. Plus I get short these days sometimes. No offence. Apologies.

Dave, it's more the flavour of and implications of their argument that seem to want humankind out of the equation in re-wilded areas. If humankind hadn't been involved a fair few of those beloved environments would no longer exist as we hold them back in stasis in a way nature wouldn't.
So saying I think as a species we have a fair way to go to balance up the see-saw (teater-totter to our American chums).
And as I admitted I was just being a bit flippant as I'm having a weird day. Sorry for any offence implied.

You see I didnt read that at all. Maybe theres an element of us all interpreting text to suit our own views?
None taken at all mate.

 

[Dave]

Having said that. Im still right.

 

[Toddy]

Change, climatic variation, extinction and diversity are normal.

Instead of berating the folks who farm, how about berating the folks who're not doing anything to preserve the land we have ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holderness

3km lost since Roman times. Good, very fertile, arable land too. Much like the Dutch side of the water, except that they're actively retaining the land, increasing the acerage they have and working to defend their coast.

M

 

[British Red]

There is something disingenuous about criticising those who farm, and wanting more coutryside stewardship (which is about all they get grants for now), and wanting cheap food.

For me, I agree stop all farming grants, but also stop all farming interference, let them do what they like on their own land. If they go broke, then someone who wants to have that land for woodland or rewilding or whatever can buy it.

Levy a chuffing great tax on imported food and use it on green energy to offset the damage done by burning fossil fuels to import food.

That would do more than the current system.

 

[NoName]

Change, climatic variation, extinction and diversity are normal.

M

eh! Toddy won the discussion with this fact.


I am off, severy struck with ignorance !

 

[Klenchblaize]

A rifle is overkill for a turkey. A 12 gauge with #2 or #4 shot is usually best.

Not the way I would approach it as in a cast lead bullet from either a 25/20 or 22 Hornet.

Must stop there or I'll get reprimanded for taking this off topic.

K

 

[Dave]

eh! Toddy won the discussion with this fact.


I am off, severy struck with ignorance !

No. I think If a species went extinct as a direct result of human beings killing it, or destroying its enviroment for profit, when we know it could have been saved, as is the case with a number of species, we should feel a great loss, and a great shame.
I dont think it counts as being described as 'normal' then.

Yes, im aware that 99.9% of every species that has ever existed has gone extinct. But it still doesnt sit well with me, when we could have stopped it. And the only reason we killed them all off, even after it took them millions of years of evolution to get as far as they did, was a bit of paper, an IOU, 'money', that doesnt really exist.

It's sick.

 

[Dave]

There is something disingenuous about criticising those who farm, and wanting more coutryside stewardship (which is about all they get grants for now), and wanting cheap food.

For me, I agree stop all farming grants, but also stop all farming interference, let them do what they like on their own land. If they go broke, then someone who wants to have that land for woodland or rewilding or whatever can buy it.

Levy a chuffing great tax on imported food and use it on green energy to offset the damage done by burning fossil fuels to import food.

That would do more than the current system.

Thats the argument I agree with. Thats why they should introduce a land value tax.

 

[dewi]

Yes, I guess i was a bit because it almost read to me, like you were attempting to deliberately scupper the need for wild animals to have a place in the world, in every post! By being critical of every argument for it. Which Im sure you werent. You are just very good at arguing a point. And a bit relentless. Plus I get short these days sometimes. No offence. Apologies.

No offence taken... I entered the discussion/debate with a fixed bias due to Monbiot's involvement... but my argument isn't against rewilding, it is against rewilding without thinking about consequence. A beaver seems harmless enough, but if there isn't the resources to support a beaver, its going to damage the area rather than improve it. Same goes for the wolf and lynx. The comments regarding the elephants and the bison were to point out just how far Monbiot has gone with his argument for rewilding... almost to the point of lunacy. Others have explained why its lunacy which should provide enough proof that we as a group can sort the wheat from the chaff when it comes to the rewilding debate.

Have tried to tone down my distaste for the Feral author and concentrate on the subject... arguing more for a democratic approach rather than an 'expert' approach simply because the 'experts' are proven wrong time and time again. Its nature... not a bloody Lego set... you can't just stick things together and hope it will work.... one wrong move and it hurts the human population, the environment, but just as important in the case of certain animals, it would have dire consequences for them as well.

I'd love to see a bison up close as much as the next man, but the idea of them wandering around Grizedale just isn't practical... whether they were there thousands of years ago or not.

 

[dewi]

I am off, severy struck with ignorance !

Don't be so hard on yourself Mors.... I personally don't think you were being ignorant!

 

[Toddy]

…..I think If a species went extinct as a direct result of human beings killing it, or destroying its enviroment for profit, when we know it could have been saved, as is the case with a number of species, we should feel a great loss, and a great shame.
I dont think it counts as being described as 'normal' then.

Yes, im aware that 99.9% of every species that has ever existed has gone extinct. But it still doesnt sit well with me, when we could have stopped it. And the only reason we killed them all off, even after it took them millions of years of evolution to get as far as they did, was a bit of paper, an IOU, 'money', that doesnt really exist.

It's sick.

No disagreement there, except that often the 'profit' is the life of the people who need to farm.

I'm in agreement with BR's, "Levy a chuffing great tax on imported food and use it on green energy to offset the damage done by burning fossil fuels to import food. "

Would make life very expensive for a lot of folks though……do you know how much value there is in the imported cut flower business ? especially over Christmas time ?
In 2010 we imported 12,000 tonnes, value ? 39,000,000 E or about £30,000,000.


M

 

[Arya]

Anybody keeping score here? Here's what I've seen:
Wolves. Glamorous but you don't need any kinds of confrontations with a strong pack. All livestock are in peril.
The only known way to even the odds is to add a pair of llamas. Not even the grizzlies will mess with them.

Llamas have also been tested here in Norway, but with varying result. Some of the llamas have been traumatized after wolf attacks, and are of no use to the sheep now, unfortunately.
Maybe it is possible to breed harder/tougher breeding lines of Llama than what these unfortunate farmers had?

 

[dewi]

Yes, im aware that 99.9% of every species that has ever existed has gone extinct. But it still doesnt sit well with me, when we could have stopped it.

That 99.9% happened before our species existed Dave... we had nothing to do with their deaths... nature did it.

The species we're killing through our arrogance and pollution now can be stopped, but the buck stops with our political systems. We need a new way to run the world and our current capitalist mentality needs knocking on the head once and for all. As long as money is saved dumping chemicals into a river it will carry on... and as long as money is earned for killing a rhino for its tusk, it will carry on.

Brings up an interesting question though... why are none of these eco-warrior author types trying to drum up support to get the pollution out of the Ganges or the Nile? Or demanding a boycott of plastic Chinese carp being shipped over here by the tanker load? Either of these would provide more worthy results than a bison nibbling on some mint cake in Kendal!

 

[Dave]

That 99.9% happened before our species existed Dave... we had nothing to do with their deaths... nature did it.

The species we're killing through our arrogance and pollution now can be stopped, but the buck stops with our political systems. We need a new way to run the world and our current capitalist mentality needs knocking on the head once and for all. As long as money is saved dumping chemicals into a river it will carry on... and as long as money is earned for killing a rhino for its tusk, it will carry on.

Brings up an interesting question though... why are none of these eco-warrior author types trying to drum up support to get the pollution out of the Ganges or the Nile? Or demanding a boycott of plastic Chinese carp being shipped over here by the tanker load? Either of these would provide more worthy results than a bison nibbling on some mint cake in Kendal!

Isnt there an argument that we made some species extinct back in the mesolithic? I dont know. They seem to keep changing their minds about that one. And since then. Such as the Dodo for instance.

I agree with you about the monetary system. There were only a few countries that were not under control of our central banks, up until recently. I think even Libya, and Iran are now! Theres only a couple left. Like North Korea and Cuba.

Throughout the cold war we were sold this utopian american capitalist dream, they kept peddling us, but since the fall of the soviet union, we've seen what the capitalists had in store for us all along. A return to an era of inequality not seen since dickens time. All these political 'isms amount to the same thing, power ,greed, corruption, etc.

......entering non allowed discussion topics here i guess....so I better shut up.

 

[mick91]

All y'all who are suggesting bringing back extinct animals CLEARLY never learned from Jurassic park. For all I would love to be able to hunt sabre tooth it seems risky. Can we all take our cloning hats off!
On a serious note I'm all for keeping some areas wild, but again it has to be kept realistic too. As any of you that know me know, I'm far from being part of the bunny hugging brigade that thinks we should let foxes roam unchecked near chicken farms or that woodpigeons should be flying around on crops severely undercooked. But biodiversity is important. I can't help but think reintroducing extinct species may cause trouble in the long run when the environment we would be introducing them to has changed.

 

[Dave]

Spain attempted to clone their Pyrenean Ibex which was a magnificent looking beast, in 2009, after it went extinct in 2000, [over hunted] but it got sick and died 7 minutes after birth.

 

[dewi]

Isnt there an argument that we made some species extinct back in the mesolithic? I dont know. They seem to keep changing their minds about that one. And since then. Such as the Dodo for instance.

I agree with you about the monetary system. There were only a few countries that were not under control of our central banks, up until recently. I think even Libya, and Iran are now! Theres only a couple left. Like North Korea.

I've no doubt we've wiped out species in our early development.... but the mesolithic was at most 20,000 years ago... life has been on Earth for arguably 2.5 billion years... we're a mere speck in the scale of things.

We're so arrogant as a species to presume that we're 'it'... that we somehow top trump nature itself. That is the flaw with this whole global warming issue and the prats that bang on about saving the planet... the planet is going nowhere... we are! As the late great George Carlin once said, the planet will shake us off like a bad case of the fleas and the only evidence that we ever existed will be some plastic bags and maybe some concrete.

We, like any other 'planet ruler' have a limited time here on Earth, and our very existence, our growth as a species is going to effect everything else... but one shift in that polar axis, one big volcano erupting or one stray meteorite... its game over for our species and make way for the next one in a few hundred million years. They'll make mistakes, just as we have and the species that have inhabited before us.... and they'll suffer the same fate at some point... the planet will just keep turning.

Best we can hope for is to try and keep this place clean for our own sake, but for every Dodo, there are a million other nameless bird species that have died without ever being recorded. Killed by a dinosaur who saw it as a tasty snack... or maybe a type of fungi that attracted it so it could catch it and digest it to survive.

 

[Dave]

As the late great George Carlin once said, the planet will shake us off like a bad case of the fleas and the only evidence that we ever existed will be some plastic bags and maybe some concrete.

Ha! I like that one. Nature will regulate us.

 

[Robson Valley]

Arya: I was friends with the llama people. They had a few which were exceptionally mean and nasty. At the same time,
there's no real way to keep track of where and when wolf encounters might have taken place. With llamas, nobody
lost livestock.
If anybody offeres you llama meat, say thank you and turn them down. Peculiar sweet flavor that you can't hide with spices.

Dave: did you all ever get a TV series called "Life After People?" A day, a week, a month, a year, 10 years, 25 years. . . . . and so on.
Fascinating to watch the postulated decomposition take place and the ecological restructuring with a few escaped exotic zoo animals
thrown into the mix. Shards of glass after a thousand years. Pyramids. Stonehenge. If it's endured until now, it will endure again.