Rewilding Britian - increasing biodiversity
- Thread starter wilderlore
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Just to revisit a point, and I swear I'll be as polite about it as possible, but this Monbiot chap 
I've always been a firm believer that the most outspoken environmentalists are the people who don't really care about the whole problem of our environment, hence the comments about the rivers around the world that are polluted and the huge ships sailing back and forth from China full of useless plastic junk that we buy to fill our homes (this time of year more than any other). The most outspoken care, when it comes down to it, about their immediate environment... there own place in the world and how it effects them directly.
With that in mind, think about Monbiot's argument. Put aside that he is suffering from acute ovinaphobia, that is no different from many other fears that are irrationally held by others in our society. Lets concentrate on his argument for rewilding.
Notice, he wants the hills to be wild and free. He wants the plants to grow, unhindered by the livestock that graze there. He wants to reintroduce certain species that once existed in our locality and he argues this based on trophic cascade, but scratch beneath the surface and you realise that the animals he wants back in our country are the ones that fascinate most of us. Those of us with adventure in our heart want to see a wild pack of wolves once in our lifetime... we want to see a bison graze, a beaver build and a lynx on the prowl. Imagine the sight of it... the majesty of these animals roaming across the land...
Door bell rings, big flashy light and a sugar plum fairy begins to dance as Monbiot's argument becomes clear.
He wants to canoe up a wild river enjoying the sights and sounds of nature at its best. He wants a wild Scotland and Wales where he can roam around the hillsides with no evidence that man has trampled on the plants or even the grass. Most of all he wants to see the majestic animals he dreams about.
Most would visit Yellowstone, Canada, Tibet or maybe Norway to experience this, but Monbiot doesn't want that... he wants it within driving distance. He wants it on his doorstep. It doesn't matter what other people think about his vision because as a good communicator he weaves his desires (and fears) into a narrative about our environment, and those who yearn for similar are drawn into his writings... so much so that they too think "Why not? Why can't we have these magnificent animals again? Why can't our countryside appear untouched as it once was?"
Instantly the communicator who has convinced you that his vision is pure turns to what all good communicators turn to if they need to persuade those who are unsure. Guilt. Don't you feel guilty that we killed that last wolf? Don't you feel guilty that there is now a path carved into a hillside because thousands of people climb that hill every year to look at the beautiful views? And don't those animals kept on the hill by a profit-driven capitalist farmer who gets money from the EU spoil your view?
If you have ovinaphobia, imagine for a second that you walk into a field filled with sheep, or you come over a dip in the hill and are faced with a pregnant ewe. Worse still, a ram! Imagine the fear, the discomfort and the panic as you try to work out the best way around to get to where you are going. When you finally get home, you sit at your computer and laugh at how scared you were about some sheep. Its daft, its stupid, people will laugh at you if you admit to it. But wait... there is an answer... you write for the Guardian. You have the internet at your fingertips to bring up data to support any argument of your choosing. You could write an article about the evils of hill farming, how everything would be better if we returned to the past, if we didn't have those nasty capitalist ruining our hills, our views and our days out.
Monbiot becomes the outspoken environmentalist. Unconcerned about the real global issues of polluted rivers, orangutans being killed for intensive farming, droughts, coastal erosions, an ocean full of plastic and acres of forest being destroyed every hour. He doesn't walk there, he doesn't canoe there. It doesn't effect him. Its not his immediate environment, and addressing any of those problems won't solve his ovinaphobia. It won't make the sheep disappear and they're everywhere!
Dave... can you see how analysing the man answers his argument? His argument is based on his own fears, his own problems and his own desire for that perfect day in the countryside without having to fly to the other side of the world.
I've always been a firm believer that the most outspoken environmentalists are the people who don't really care about the whole problem of our environment, hence the comments about the rivers around the world that are polluted and the huge ships sailing back and forth from China full of useless plastic junk that we buy to fill our homes (this time of year more than any other). The most outspoken care, when it comes down to it, about their immediate environment... there own place in the world and how it effects them directly.
With that in mind, think about Monbiot's argument. Put aside that he is suffering from acute ovinaphobia, that is no different from many other fears that are irrationally held by others in our society. Lets concentrate on his argument for rewilding.
Notice, he wants the hills to be wild and free. He wants the plants to grow, unhindered by the livestock that graze there. He wants to reintroduce certain species that once existed in our locality and he argues this based on trophic cascade, but scratch beneath the surface and you realise that the animals he wants back in our country are the ones that fascinate most of us. Those of us with adventure in our heart want to see a wild pack of wolves once in our lifetime... we want to see a bison graze, a beaver build and a lynx on the prowl. Imagine the sight of it... the majesty of these animals roaming across the land...
Door bell rings, big flashy light and a sugar plum fairy begins to dance as Monbiot's argument becomes clear.
He wants to canoe up a wild river enjoying the sights and sounds of nature at its best. He wants a wild Scotland and Wales where he can roam around the hillsides with no evidence that man has trampled on the plants or even the grass. Most of all he wants to see the majestic animals he dreams about.
Most would visit Yellowstone, Canada, Tibet or maybe Norway to experience this, but Monbiot doesn't want that... he wants it within driving distance. He wants it on his doorstep. It doesn't matter what other people think about his vision because as a good communicator he weaves his desires (and fears) into a narrative about our environment, and those who yearn for similar are drawn into his writings... so much so that they too think "Why not? Why can't we have these magnificent animals again? Why can't our countryside appear untouched as it once was?"
Instantly the communicator who has convinced you that his vision is pure turns to what all good communicators turn to if they need to persuade those who are unsure. Guilt. Don't you feel guilty that we killed that last wolf? Don't you feel guilty that there is now a path carved into a hillside because thousands of people climb that hill every year to look at the beautiful views? And don't those animals kept on the hill by a profit-driven capitalist farmer who gets money from the EU spoil your view?
If you have ovinaphobia, imagine for a second that you walk into a field filled with sheep, or you come over a dip in the hill and are faced with a pregnant ewe. Worse still, a ram! Imagine the fear, the discomfort and the panic as you try to work out the best way around to get to where you are going. When you finally get home, you sit at your computer and laugh at how scared you were about some sheep. Its daft, its stupid, people will laugh at you if you admit to it. But wait... there is an answer... you write for the Guardian. You have the internet at your fingertips to bring up data to support any argument of your choosing. You could write an article about the evils of hill farming, how everything would be better if we returned to the past, if we didn't have those nasty capitalist ruining our hills, our views and our days out.
Monbiot becomes the outspoken environmentalist. Unconcerned about the real global issues of polluted rivers, orangutans being killed for intensive farming, droughts, coastal erosions, an ocean full of plastic and acres of forest being destroyed every hour. He doesn't walk there, he doesn't canoe there. It doesn't effect him. Its not his immediate environment, and addressing any of those problems won't solve his ovinaphobia. It won't make the sheep disappear and they're everywhere!
Dave... can you see how analysing the man answers his argument? His argument is based on his own fears, his own problems and his own desire for that perfect day in the countryside without having to fly to the other side of the world.
He's not always right, some of his arguments I disagree with.
He gets a battering on CIF, and seems to draw admiration or be despised. He's marmite.
Bit some of the work he's written, [and I wasnt originally drawn to him over his writing about enviromental issues] is excellent, and
He's on the money a lot of the time too.
One of the first articles I read of his was 'the propoganda of the victor'
Which opened my eyes, and was in keeping with works I'd been reading by people Like Kevin Cahill, and Andy Wightman, regarding land ownership through the ages, and the theft of it, from the common man.
This interest was sparked by seeing house prices triple in less than a decade, whilst the median uk wage rose by just £6.5k.
Why? Why did Land go so out of reach of our pockets? So quickly. Thats where it began for me, years back now. Also reading people like Proudhon, who wrote some of the original tenants of social democracy, [the journalists today, dont seem to have a clue what that means] on the housing question;
His book Feral, begins like a bushcrafters blog, kayaking on the ocean, fishing for mackerel, back o the beach, grilling them, and eating them. He then goes into some of his adventures, like going solo into some very rough areas, such as the gold and diamond miners of south america, and having a gun pointed in his face, by an angry miner etc....
Ive got time for him. Because its not just the enviromental stuff I read of his. I see him as part of a larger group, desiring radical social change.
I realise he was born with a major silvr spoon in his mouth, and I have nothing in common with him, and probably would not get along with him as a human being. Too different backgrounds. But that doesnt mean I cannot respect his viewpoints. I spark of his stuff, and think of my own.
I think generally speaking there is a much better world out there for us, to create, but things would have to get a lot lot worse before they got any better, and most people would rather accept the status quo, as it is than that.
He gets a battering on CIF, and seems to draw admiration or be despised. He's marmite.
Bit some of the work he's written, [and I wasnt originally drawn to him over his writing about enviromental issues] is excellent, and
He's on the money a lot of the time too.
One of the first articles I read of his was 'the propoganda of the victor'
Which opened my eyes, and was in keeping with works I'd been reading by people Like Kevin Cahill, and Andy Wightman, regarding land ownership through the ages, and the theft of it, from the common man.
This interest was sparked by seeing house prices triple in less than a decade, whilst the median uk wage rose by just £6.5k.
Why? Why did Land go so out of reach of our pockets? So quickly. Thats where it began for me, years back now. Also reading people like Proudhon, who wrote some of the original tenants of social democracy, [the journalists today, dont seem to have a clue what that means] on the housing question;
His book Feral, begins like a bushcrafters blog, kayaking on the ocean, fishing for mackerel, back o the beach, grilling them, and eating them. He then goes into some of his adventures, like going solo into some very rough areas, such as the gold and diamond miners of south america, and having a gun pointed in his face, by an angry miner etc....
Ive got time for him. Because its not just the enviromental stuff I read of his. I see him as part of a larger group, desiring radical social change.
I realise he was born with a major silvr spoon in his mouth, and I have nothing in common with him, and probably would not get along with him as a human being. Too different backgrounds. But that doesnt mean I cannot respect his viewpoints. I spark of his stuff, and think of my own.
I think generally speaking there is a much better world out there for us, to create, but things would have to get a lot lot worse before they got any better, and most people would rather accept the status quo, as it is than that.
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Doesn't take away from the fact that the arguments he makes for rewilding the UK and his hatred of hill farmers comes from a severe fear of sheep.
I agree on the land issue, I wholeheartedly agree on the house price debacle and I know Monbiot is well-traveled, but being right some of the time doesn't make him right all of the time... and an issue involving the livelihoods of half a million people, especially considering the news today that the last of our coal mines has gone, isn't something to take lightly. Monbiot is in a position of influence, and unfortunately our politicians do like to look for a nicely framed argument to base policy from. Monbiot is giving it to them for nothing more than being scared of a few ruminants.
In no way am I mocking his fear, nor do I think it frames his every argument... but you see my point? He's introducing arguments into a discussion that should be kept within the bounds of possibility... and you can see he's struggling with his argument when he brings in elephants and bison. Its that step too far from the fantasy that many of us have to see certain species wandering freely about the landscape. In real terms, we can not support the countryside that Monbiot wants, so he'll have to keep making those long flights across the world and the dangers that come from being in the true wild, whether populated by humans or not.
We need to sit round a camp fire one of these days Dave, be interested to hear more of your views about the property market/land ownership.
I agree on the land issue, I wholeheartedly agree on the house price debacle and I know Monbiot is well-traveled, but being right some of the time doesn't make him right all of the time... and an issue involving the livelihoods of half a million people, especially considering the news today that the last of our coal mines has gone, isn't something to take lightly. Monbiot is in a position of influence, and unfortunately our politicians do like to look for a nicely framed argument to base policy from. Monbiot is giving it to them for nothing more than being scared of a few ruminants.
In no way am I mocking his fear, nor do I think it frames his every argument... but you see my point? He's introducing arguments into a discussion that should be kept within the bounds of possibility... and you can see he's struggling with his argument when he brings in elephants and bison. Its that step too far from the fantasy that many of us have to see certain species wandering freely about the landscape. In real terms, we can not support the countryside that Monbiot wants, so he'll have to keep making those long flights across the world and the dangers that come from being in the true wild, whether populated by humans or not.
We need to sit round a camp fire one of these days Dave, be interested to hear more of your views about the property market/land ownership.
Set the world to rights, have four beers and collapse in bed. 
[h=1]Revealed: Tiger numbers INCREASE when tribe stays in tiger reserve[/h]
http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/11004
http://www.survivalinternational.org/news/11004
I want to see the day that a Mastodon bull takes a dump on Monbiot's doorstep and punches out his front windows, fighting with the reflections.
Beavers are one of my favorite Go-To critters for this type discussion (discussing mankind killing species by changing the environment to suit himself) That's exactly what beavers do; change their environment to suit themselves, and kill other species in the process. We aren't "interfering" with nature; we're part of nature.
I want to see Britain rewilded with Mastodons. Thousands of them. Mastodon ice cream. Mastodon woven hair blankets. Belly-button lint for pillows.
Why ?
You do know we're on islands here ? and they're kind of overpopulated islands at that. What the hang would they eat ?
M
You do know we're on islands here ? and they're kind of overpopulated islands at that. What the hang would they eat ?
M
Given the inefficiency of herbivoe foods vs nutrition, "everything." Just save food that's otherwise thrown away. Astounding pile of things to eat.
Pray for another ice age to make the european connection again.
Pray for another ice age to make the european connection again.
Actually, the idea of introducing wild turkey isn't so crazy. I'll bet they occupy a vacant ecological niche. Resources in variety unused.
They don't attack small children very often and there's a permanent cure for that. Going 20+lbs, that's fair food.
Plus, their featherless necks are so gaudy colored and ugly, their gait is so comical, you have to love them for your kitchen oven.
Anybody find me in the KettleRiver website? Home page in the ghillie jacket. Wonderful frosty morning. I fed a dozen people
with that bird and the trimmings.
If it flies, it dies. That's what I hunt.
They don't attack small children very often and there's a permanent cure for that. Going 20+lbs, that's fair food.
Plus, their featherless necks are so gaudy colored and ugly, their gait is so comical, you have to love them for your kitchen oven.
Anybody find me in the KettleRiver website? Home page in the ghillie jacket. Wonderful frosty morning. I fed a dozen people
with that bird and the trimmings.
If it flies, it dies. That's what I hunt.
We're on target to be about the warmest December recorded in a hundred years
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/35126281
Mastodons would struggle anyway, but in this weather, not a good idea.
In the North, Hell is ice that does not melt.
Thank you, but we'll not be praying for that.
M
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/features/35126281
Mastodons would struggle anyway, but in this weather, not a good idea.
In the North, Hell is ice that does not melt.
Thank you, but we'll not be praying for that.
M
Maybe we aren't going back far enough? Get rid of all those pesky mammals & just have glaciers & their calves wandering the glens.
Though on a philosophical level is it a wilderness is no-one is around to classify it as one? Like trees being mute when falling with no ears to make the emenations into a sound.
From what I've read of Monibot all I can see he is good for is promoting discussion. General consensus of his views seem to be that they are mere flights of fancy.
As to introducing turkeys to the UK, well we'd have to introduce their natural predator too, but with our tight gun laws the rednecks may get bored and want to go home.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
Though on a philosophical level is it a wilderness is no-one is around to classify it as one? Like trees being mute when falling with no ears to make the emenations into a sound.
From what I've read of Monibot all I can see he is good for is promoting discussion. General consensus of his views seem to be that they are mere flights of fancy.
As to introducing turkeys to the UK, well we'd have to introduce their natural predator too, but with our tight gun laws the rednecks may get bored and want to go home.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
I know, was having a bit of fun. Also was in mind of it as the local off-licence had a display of American bourbon when I looked in yesterday. Wild Turkey & Rebel Yell, so it was on my mind. Don't think that we want to introduce another species though do we? Though it could be karma for us giving them their starling problem.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
Sent via smoke-signal from a woodland in Scotland.
Sorry Dave, I meant to agree about the extinctions in the mesolithic….and right into the Bronze age too. Mediterranean islands had giant swans, miniature hippos and elephants, and humans wiped them out.
As I said previously island fauna's always on a bit of a sticky wicket.
The giant Irish elk went down the same route according to some, though that one's still in debate, and in New Zealand the giant geese and the moa suffered the same fate.
There's a good book on the topic,
Extinctions and Invasions: A Social History of British Fauna
ww.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/extinctions-and-invasions.html
Rebel Yell ? "Heedrumm Ho, Heedrumm Hiiiii, the teuchter who came frae Skye"
M
As I said previously island fauna's always on a bit of a sticky wicket.
The giant Irish elk went down the same route according to some, though that one's still in debate, and in New Zealand the giant geese and the moa suffered the same fate.
There's a good book on the topic,
Extinctions and Invasions: A Social History of British Fauna
ww.oxbowbooks.com/oxbow/extinctions-and-invasions.html
Rebel Yell ?
"Heedrumm Ho, Heedrumm Hiiiii, the teuchter who came frae Skye"M
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I don't reckon they would do well - not enough large habitats. I'd like to hunt them though. Since we are thinking of re-wilding, couldn't we just bulldoze Slough or something?
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