Rewilding Britian - increasing biodiversity

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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Ged, to re-wild the UK would mean the removal of virtually every human being on the islands. Monbiot soundbites sound 'reasonable', but the reality is that they don't work with what is actually here, now, and they don't take into account the interconnectedness of the landscapes. Comments on the recent flooding blaming hillfarming were a classic from him….see the post above about just how much water actually came down in an incredibly short time. There was/is no way that changing the upland ecosystem would alter that sheer volume of water. Even building the hills full of dams wouldn't fix that. The rain fell everywhere, not just on the hills.

That's not just hill farmers who are affected (or to blame) , but people on flood plains, watercourses, drainage areas, and that hundred quid a year to landowners covers everything from grants for tree planting to maintaining set aside verges for wildlife.

It's just another moan from monbiot.

M
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
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This one seems, er, on the money:

"When essential public services are being cut, giving €55 billion a year from the public purse across the EU to landowners, while helping to destroy both human communities and ecological resilience is surely as unsustainable politically as it is environmentally."

It'd be on the money if there was any truth to it... unfortunately he's using 'Monbiot Maths' and exaggerating to try to make it an issue. It is much the same as Gore with his mental claims about accelerated warming and the ocean rising to impossible heights... reductio ad absurdum to put it politely.

I'd have no argument with the chap if he dedicated a tenth of his time to actual issues and solutions. He'll happily writes article after article about soil erosion over the last half a century, but doesn't bat an eyelid about coastal erosion... despite the land loss every single year and it having a relatively simple solution. He would much rather brag about demolishing a respected botanist using flawed scientific arguments based on political dogma... primarily because thats his modus operandi and it furthers his rather lucrative career as a professional finger-wagger.
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
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Thats your choice Dewi. Before you criticise someone's argument, should you have read his entire argument?
 

dewi

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May 26, 2015
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Thats your choice Dewi. Before you criticise someone's argument, should you have read his entire argument?

Depends if you interacted with that person before... you already know his argument and where its come from... and more to the point, the fact that the only opinion Monbiot is interested in is his own.

I've no doubt he's fleshed argument out with some interesting anecdotes.... I can pretty much guarantee he's had a rant about a Welsh farmer, he'll have fantasised about elephants wandering through France and of course he'll be happy for people to make up their own minds about his opinions... that is unless one disagrees... then the knives are drawn.

Should Monbiot know my opinion in full before he criticises me or people like me then Dave? Or do we only need to know the entire argument of those who know the right people to get their opinions into print?
 

Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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How's this for a title though ?

"Feral: Searching for enchantment on the frontiers of rewilding - George MonBiot "

Enchantment…..yeah, I jest you not. I ask you though, do you think those hill folks that he's busy slating find it enchanting ?
How about the 60 million a year it takes to keep the Thames barrier in order ? that's after the original spend of over £600m…makes fixing the drainage in Cumbria very small potatoes, doesn't it ? ah, but it's not so 'enchanting' is it ?

Sorry Dave, I like people fine, but this fellow's book didn't give me any hope that he's worth listening to as an ecologist for the UK and it's rather unique issues.

M
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
11
Brigantia
Hey, if you've already made up your minds, fine.

[Attacking the man is not addressing his arguments]
 
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Toddy

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Jan 21, 2005
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S. Lanarkshire
It's not about us being closed minded though; between us the folks on this forum literally live, work and play on virtually every corner of the land.

I think most of us genuinely see that there is no 'enchanting' easy answer to the issues that we face.
Our islands are some of the most beautiful, most challenging, and most crowded lands on the planet. There is almost no land in the UK that has not had human intervention on it over the millennia. Claims about re-wilding sound good, but the reality isn't a soundbite from a journalist evangelist, easy fix.

I'm all for planting trees, but that's an exercise is futility in areas where they just will not grow. The right trees, etc., in the right areas, etc.
Besides, it's an ecologically known that the final succession is peat bog.

Plants and Vegetation: Origins, Processes, Consequences

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...=onepage&q=Peat bog, final succession&f=false
http://www.wiley.com/college/strahler/0471480533/animations/ch23_animations/animation1.html


and I'm an archaeologist, not an ecologist, and even I know this.

M
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
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Cheshire
Hey, if you've already made up your minds, fine.

The problem is Dave that Monbiot double-talks... and since his demolition job on Bellamy, his double-talking has increased exponentially and he gets paid handsomely for his hypocrisy.

As an example, he's a firm believer that the modern home is wasteful and he's against rich people living in large houses alone. His argument is sound enough and its difficult to disagree, until you realise that he is one of those rich people living in a 4 bedroomed house alone. His London home went up for sale, and he immediately began to fret in his writings about how someone else would be occupying that horridly wasteful home... but did it stop him cashing the cheque?

He argues for austerity, living on less as a nation.... so much so that he plans to build a life in Wales in a sustainable home. A great way to prove his point, apart from the fact that he earns his living attacking the Welsh for their way of life, and his sustainable home is another 4 bedroomed house in Wales that ironically he'll spend over £100,000 to adapt.... ironic because he's earned the money lecturing the wealthy about their excess, the Welsh about the way they scrape a living... thats before his dramatic u-turn on windmills when he realised they were going to build them near his new Welsh home.

So, whilst on the one hand Monbiot scolds the average person for their consumerist lifestyle, laments the rich for getting a 25% discount on their council tax and chastises everyone for their destruction of the environment, he lives that very same consumerist lifestyle on the money earned from scolding other, receives the 25% discount on his council tax and chastises renewable energy because its going to sited in his back garden.

Had enough, or are you thirsty for more? I've not even warmed up yet! :D
 
I think really we should be judging Rewilding Britain as opposed to the way a man lives his life. I don't think we would be able to find the time to judge each individual within the organisation. It would be more productive to discuss what Rewilding Britain are attempting to achieve as opposed to discussing this on a personal level of 'I've walked this many days in the mountains' or 'this man lives in this house'.

The factitious comments on the exotic animals I was referring to was that of Hyena and Rhino.

There are some fundamental points which keep recirculating here, everyone seems to still think that the aim is to rewild the whole of Britain and have no spaces for cattle within the uplands. If we are to debate this we need to be clear on the aims of Rewilding Britain.

Trees do grow in the uplands, as they used to, and as they are beginning to in the fenced off areas at Ogwen where cattle has also been reduced.

The mountain environment, despite being very wet and storing water for obvious reasons, is defiantly not a floodplain. I was going to write a definition of a floodplain from my old lecturer's book- Earth Environments Past Present and Future, but I don't have it with me right now. I do know that a river has to burst it's banks onto a floodplain, for it to be a floodplain.

Footpath erosion is a major issue in the mountain environment, it appears to be common due to the erosive nature of water channeling along footpaths and causing soil to erode back from the path by a substantial amount. Root systems do a great job holding the soil together.

Peat is a separate topic, obviously trees should not be planted on top of kinder scout. This comparison between rewilding and introducing trees on peat upland just seems to be muddying the discussion. I don't think anyone is asking for that to happen, but I could be wrong?

I don't think everything Rewilding Britain is arguing for is something I would support, but i think we should keep an open mind towards increasing the biodiversity in a few ares in what I agree to be a desert like environment. Some of the arguments that seem to resonate with me, and ones I suppose i'm trying to make are as follows:-

Deer populations can be managed within woodland environments, be it with hunting or reintroducing species. Venison is pretty tasty :p

I do think some species should be strictly ruled out in terms of reintroducing.

The Lynx and Wolf lives alongside agriculture in Germany so we could possibly learn something from them. Whether it's adapting farming or subsidises for agricultural loss.

The Wolf has been know to maul so I don't see them as an appropriate species in the UK.

Lynx, I suppose there is an argument for and against where agriculture is concerned. I guess no one wants a trail near their farm, but maybe the government could subsidise any loss for the sake of a greater understanding of our scepticism. Maybe then we would have something more concrete to base are arguments on, and understand if they could have a positive impact upon the countryside if they were to be reintroduced. I imagine they will 'escape' from somewhere at some point anyway, just like the beaver and boar have done, so maybe doing it in a controlled way would be less destructive. I imagine we will see the impact they have at some point.

I don't think we have to say yes or no to Rewilding Britain as a whole, but I think some of its components could have a positive effect on our biodiversity and economy. If you know of how or where George has gotten the figures he speaks of from, as many of you have dismissed them as being inaccurate, then I would be interested to see them. Maybe others would too.
 

dewi

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May 26, 2015
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Cheshire
I think really we should be judging Rewilding Britain as opposed to the way a man lives his life.

Usually I would agree with you, but in the case of Monbiot, he's a habitual hypocrite and having read quite a bit of his musings in the past I'm inclined to ignore his environmental views in favour of those who have more sensible ideas.

You can not ignore the fact that Monbiot is all for changing the landscape and critters of Scotland without a second thought for the population, but when the Severn Barrage plan was going to spoil his view of the estuary, he was against it. He chastised the people of Yorkshire when they objected to wind farms, but when it was to appear in Monbiot's back garden, all of a sudden all wind farms should be offshore.

Add to this his frankly insane comments about introducing elephants into Europe because they once roamed around these parts 11,500 years ago... you have to wonder whether he's worth listening to at all. I've no doubt Europe was once home to many beasties thousands of years ago, but back then the human population of the entire Earth was probably what... a million or two? We have more than that in a single European city now, let alone dotted round the countryside.

Using Monbiot's argument, surely we have a responsibility to release any samples of smallpox we have... I mean yes, its lethal and we're going have human casualties, but it existed on Earth uninhibited for thousands of years until uncaring humans with murder in their minds came along to eradicate it! We didn't just seek to contain this life form, nor did we give it its own space to live... we actively murdered its population and any survivors have been locked up in conditions worse than Guantanamo Bay, never to be released. And don't get me started with the fate of poor Rinderpest... a life form we condemned over 5000 years ago and finally murdered into oblivion 5 years ago. 5000 years of persecution at the hands of evil humans! We should be ashamed!!!

I don't think anyone thinks this is about rewilding the whole of Britain... this is about an attention-seeking journalist who is still in the grips of his mid-life crisis pawing his liberal hands into the proverbial pot of gold by blaming farmers, hill-walkers and by his own admission, the evil sheep demons for the issue his chosen to champion... soil erosion.... whilst focusing his geographical attention on Scotland, that well-known barren wasteland with no human population to speak of :rolleyes:

You're right though, we don't have to say yes or no to rewilding Britain as a whole, or even specifically rewilding Scotland, in much the same way as we don't have to say yes or no to having bromide poured into our water supplies in an effort to reduce the population... why? Because its a ridiculous idea thought up by someone who trying to tackle the problem in a backwards thinking way. The irony of that is that Monbiot himself argues against backwards thinking, but only when it suits his agenda such as backing fracking to push the environmental issue, which makes about as much sense as supporting more strip clubs to highlight sexism.

Which figures specifically do you want clarifying? The subsidies given to land owners in the EU, or the subsidies given to farmers in certain regions, or other?
 
Which figures specifically do you want clarifying? The subsidies given to land owners in the EU, or the subsidies given to farmers in certain regions, or other?

I get why you might be angry at his notions, but I still think we should leave him aside and focus on ecology.

Subsidies given to farmers in the UK for upland farming and how much they make. Basically the figures Monbiot says in his article as that's the only source I have come across.
 

Toddy

Mod
Mod
Jan 21, 2005
39,133
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S. Lanarkshire
Hillfarming is 55% of Scottish farmland. It's an enormous issue and of national importance.

This is Scottish Natural Heritage's site on the hillfarming and their place within the wider ecology and environment.
http://www.snh.gov.uk/land-and-sea/managing-the-land/farming-crofting/farming-wildlife/hill-farming/

This is the Government's site on subsidies and grants, including those for farming, rural development and schemes involving agriculture and environmental concerns.
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/grants

I'm presuming that there are similar sites for Wales, Northern Ireland and England.

M
 
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Herbalist1

Settler
Jun 24, 2011
585
1
North Yorks
Strong argument? Monbiot?

Nope.. discussed before, and the consensus was the bloke is an idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

You want to introduce foreign species into Britain... so where do you put them? Scotland? Good luck with persuading the locals... but more importantly, where will you source your donor? Canada? Russia? You think they'll seamlessly integrate? And that is the problem... Monbiot doesn't consider, doesn't think, he spouts.

Monbiot is well known for his trips down fantasy lane... the guy is a journalist and strikes up debate about the environment in the same way that Hopkins discusses immigrants. To call it a strong argument is an insult to the people who live in the areas that Monbiot wants to infect with his disease of environmentalism.

There is a reason for 99.9% of all species that have ever existed being extinct. It's about time that cabbage-cuddling, bungling-typewriter-bashing idiots like Monbiot realised... the world has moved on, the landscape isn't his to fantasise about and despite his carrot-munching, cheese-paring, tweed-infested ideas, he doesn't speak for the majority.

Now, how about some grizzly bears in Liverpool? Or some wild hyenas in Chesterfield? Perhaps we could release some pregnant elephants onto Penny Lane?

When you're happy with wild animals that will do harm in your own backyard, back Monbiot in his London castle claiming that we should reintroduce wild animals.... just not in his back garden. After all, they may trample on the chap's ego... and that would devastate the London press to lose one of its darlings! If he does insist on getting close to wildlife, may I recommend someone sends the gent a rattle snake, or perhaps drops him off in the arctic so he can examine the polar bears he spews about so often just that little more closely. If he survives trial by fire, then we can go to the big guns and stick a herd of sheep in his lounge. Lets see him argue against sheep farming whilst he tries to munch on his cous cous with a ewe sat between him and his Apple Mac.

Well I think that's a pretty offensive, ill thought out response Dewi - you make tweed infested sound like a bad thing! I'm rather partial to a bit of tweed. I'm quite happy for you to send the guy a rattle snake but go easy on the tweed.
I'm off to calm myself down now by stroking a nice bit of Harris (the tweed variety - not the Rolf variety, that would just be very very creepy) :cool:
 

Macaroon

A bemused & bewildered
Jan 5, 2013
7,241
385
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SE Wales
Well I think that's a pretty offensive, ill thought out response Dewi - you make tweed infested sound like a bad thing! I'm rather partial to a bit of tweed. I'm quite happy for you to send the guy a rattle snake but go easy on the tweed.
I'm off to calm myself down now by stroking a nice bit of Harris (the tweed variety - not the Rolf variety, that would just be very very creepy) :cool:

Thirty seven posts, and at last we have a good 'un!................Enjoy the stroking! :)
 

dewi

Full Member
May 26, 2015
2,647
13
Cheshire
I get why you might be angry at his notions, but I still think we should leave him aside and focus on ecology.

Subsidies given to farmers in the UK for upland farming and how much they make. Basically the figures Monbiot says in his article as that's the only source I have come across.

Fair enough.

Are you talking about the £200 to £300 per hectare Monbiot mentions?
 

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