Realist "Survival" training

[AuldJum]

My grandson is wanting to learn bushcraft and "survival" skills and tends to take the survival part very seriously.

When he's in the house he will leave at a moments notice as soon as conditions are bad (which he did tonight as the rain blew in and the wind blew the bins over) with whatever he had on him at the time which always consists of a lighter (he smokes) and his SAK. He has done this 8 times this year already and has only really been into bushcraft for less than a year but he's stayed inside for less than a month out of that.

It got me thinking that "Survival" training is unrealistic and that maybe his method is the only way to have a realistic understanding of survival and that anything else is bad to say the least, thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion.

P.S He is old enough to decide this method for himself and i will only warn him repeatedly of the dangers and i will not stop him if he believes it is the way he wants things.

 

[John Fenna]

When training for wilderness trekking around the world I used to make myself spend nights out with just my day kit ...it made me realise what I realy needed in my day kit!
My Scouts survival weekends were built around the possiblity of a canoe trip/remote hike going bad and all they were allowed to bring on the w/e was their day hiking bag (plus a sleeping bag which was only to be used in the case of real emergencies!)
I had loads of safety kit on site but out of sight for dealing with thing if they went wrong....
Never lost a kid yet!

 

[Robbi]

Never lost a kid yet!

you're not trying hard enough then John !

 

[John Fenna]

you're not trying hard enough then John !

Mea culpa!

 

[jacko1066]

Sorry to hijack the thread Auldjam,

John that scenario sounds good, I am an assistant Explorer scout leader and we are looking to do some stuff like that after xmas in the new term, how did you go about setting that up? Iv thought about doing the whole 5 items or less night/weekend out but inmy opinion it gives them too much choice of gear (if that makes sense?)

Has your son thought about going on a proper survival course? there are some good courses around Auld jam, wilderness essentials looks pretty good and Im thinking about doing a similar thing myself!!


Cheers
Steve

 

[johnboy]

It got me thinking that "Survival" training is unrealistic and that maybe his method is the only way to have a realistic understanding of survival and that anything else is bad to say the least, thought it would be an interesting topic for discussion.

Clearly not all other survival skills training is 'bad' as you contend. What your grandson seems to be doing is testing his existing knowledge in testing conditions with minimal kit as he tests himself he learns but he would have had a base level of knowledge to begin with perhaps from all of the bushcrafting he has been doing.

If your joe average, some training in the basic skills of wilderness survival is a foundation. Once you have the base knowledge you move on to more testing skills.

Most survival skills providers run on this basis, a basic course then an intermediate and then advanced course...

Not many take someone without much knowledge and chuck them in the Ulu in a fight or flight type of scenario.

People generally progress with a structured and progressive learning environment...

I think once you have the skills on board then testing them in trying conditions is a natural extension.

Cheers

John

 

[sandbender]

"...thinking that "Survival" training is unrealistic and that maybe his method is the only way to have a realistic understanding of survival and that anything else is bad to say the least..."

Walking out the door with only what you have on you at the time and staying out for a few nights will certainly give folks a better idea of their abilities, more so than sitting at home trying to design the perfect bug out bag. Good luck to him.

Does he live in Fife? The weather won't be so bad, 6 degrees C, dry, a light wind and he'll have a nice sunny morning to look forward to.

Edited to add:

Does he wear his boots in the house? Maybe he should try heading out barefoot or in slippers?

 

[Corso]

seems to me he's running away from something.....

 

[nuggets]

seems to me he's running away from something.....

???would you like to explain that a bit more???

 

[AuldJum]

Aye he is in Fife and the weather isn't too bad comparitivly to say Northern Canada but it's the worst conditions he can get.

It's an interesting thing to do imho because a lone survivor in all probability will not be expecting it, which he is doing in the best way he can and with minimal kit( what he's wearing plus his lighter plus SAK)

The priority's of survival really come into effect in the scenario he's playing out for himself which gives a realisti understanding.

I'm personally not a fan of the survival thing and neithers the wee man tbh. I apologise for the sweeping statement that all survival training is unrealistic as that was poor form from me but from the "survival" training i have done( i've been around for 70 odd years) i find it's unrealistic, the chances are it will be unexpected and you'll have minimal kit and in all likelyhood it'll be at night and "survival" training from what i have experienced allows you a way out whicjh Psychologically helps you but the wee man is not near help at the

 

[AuldJum]

moment which gives a realism, he is responsible for himself completely, i find it very interesting which i'm sure others do.

How can you give survival training when your 30 seconds from help? it's unrealistic we have the idea of shelter/fire water and food but this isn't realistic unless you know the stuff your in to is.

I think it's serious as he does as "survival" training is a life and death matter so maybe it should be regulated to ensuew realistic instrucors.

I feel it's an interesting topic and others peoples opinions is obviously what im looking for otherwise i wouldn't have posted

P.S again he's almost 20, he is old enough to decide for himself what is safe and as i say i will only state the dangers but won't stop him, it's what he loves and he's smart enough to decide himself hence i wont stop him so if anyone asks it's his choica.

 

[AuldJum]

seems to me he's running away from something.....

Not quite sure what you mean bud. only from reading your post obviously can't judge tone or proper meaning from it so obviously make quick decisions which i won't elaborate on till you have made anothrr post.

Howevrer please elaborate bud.

 

[AuldJum]

@ Sandbender he hasn't worn shoes in two months( he posted a thread about a month ago about it) funilly enough he preferrs it but the topic i posted isnt the same so pm me if you want to discuss it brother so as not to go off topic.

 

[johnboy]

How can you give survival training when your 30 seconds from help? it's unrealistic we have the idea of shelter/fire water and food but this isn't realistic unless you know the stuff your in to is.

Another reasonable question might be how 'realistic' is wilderness survival training for non military personel in the UK??

I think it's serious as he does as "survival" training is a life and death matter so maybe it should be regulated to ensuew realistic instrucors.

So is your contention that if survival training is not undertaken in 'extreme' conditions in a remote or semi remote location with a minimal of kit it's worthless..

 

[AuldJum]

Another reasonable question might be how 'realistic' is wilderness survival training for non military personel in the UK??

Well i'll state first that i'm not trying to destroy conventional survival training merely challenging it.

In terms of realism i feel it's unlikely as you'll most likely discard tge "training" and use human instinct to determine the best way which the wee man has told me and assuming his methods are the only way to understand fully, his scenario is probably unrealistic but it's the closest he can get,


So is your contention that if survival training is not undertaken in 'extreme' conditions in a remote or semi remote location with a minimal of kit it's worthless..

I wouldn't say it was worthless i would say it's unrealistic, i have been learning and teaching buschcraft and survival skills for nearly 50 years (this doesn't give me credibility) and we always say that survival is mostly psychology, so how could we understand with a pack full of kit?

 

[AuldJum]

So is your contention that if survival training is not undertaken in 'extreme' conditions in a remote or semi remote location with a minimal of kit it's worthless.".

Not fully as obviously training helps but a plane crash blah blah blah you won't have it, If we don't have help and water etc and needed to provide these things for ourself we would struggle.

In all probability we would have minimal kit and very little hope for escape which psychologically is important for realism.

I just think that a realistic approach is the only way

"PS" i'm not a fan of survival though i don't think it's silly"

Considering what the wee man is doing i thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss"

 

[Elines]

It is interesting - what are the main lessons he has learned so far? is it skills that he has realised he needs to have eg tree identification (can't think of a better example), or something that he needs to carry on him at all times eg cord

 

[Jimmy Bojangles]

My brother Came off his bike a couple of months back while flying down an old roman road, once he came round (we think he was out for about an hour) he manage to drag his bike the mile home with his good arm, his right arm being shattered at the elbow with the bones coming through. Made me think about survival, as you could well imagine hiking in fog and taking a tumble down a ravine. Coming round, no chance of making it home before night, phone smashed, some kit possibly lost in the fall, and a limb, possibly more than one out of action. If you go hiking alone (I generally don't) it's something you should consider. At the least do you have stuff (poncho, blanket) you could drag out of your pack to keep you alive through the night? And could you get it out wist one freezing cold hand?

I would say survival training on your own sounds a bit risky as you may well not notice the onset of hypothermia yourself.

Cheers

Mat

 

[Corso]

Not quite sure what you mean bud. only from reading your post obviously can't judge tone or proper meaning from it so obviously make quick decisions which i won't elaborate on till you have made anothrr post.

Howevrer please elaborate bud.

It was the way i interprited the original post

When he's in the house he will leave at a moments notice as soon as conditions are bad.

I misinterprited bad as something other than the weather.

It struck a cord with me and my misspent youth no offence meant

Personally I dont hold much faith in 'Survival' training, way too many unknowns you cant replicate, I practice self reliance in the environments I frequent whether they are urban,countryside or the sea etc.

 

[gliderrider]

I think all survival training is reletivly un realistic, as (Along with a lot of other training) all you have to do is blow the whistle etc and you are safe and sound. Having said that, it cant really be done any other way without the training itself turning into a life or death situation.

Anyway, I'm planning one for a weekend for my scouts in the new year, Jacko if you want to PM me we can compare notes.