Question for the Knife Makers.

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TeeDee

Full Member
Nov 6, 2008
10,526
3,719
50
Exeter
Quick question for the Knife makers , when it comes to making bladed tools of longer length ( Machete + ) , is the process for tempering the metal the same or different or more difficult?

Also would would use the same steel types as shorter blades or not? Would 5160 be a better choice and please explain why?

Cheers
 

Bigman686

Member
Oct 31, 2013
13
0
Cambridge
I'm a complete novice to knife making but I'm sure you'd need to draw the spine out afterwards to give it a bit of flex perhaps? As for steel type Iv no idea mate sorry leaf spring might be good?
 

BushBob

Tenderfoot
Nov 24, 2013
85
5
East Mids
Tee Dee,

It's the same process. It's more difficult to heat treat larger blade but only cause you need good gear to get heat into the whole blade.

Many bigger pieces are made from tool steel, which works well and is fine.

Cheers,

Bob
 
Tool steel is the usual preferred choice for large knives though many have used SS. The thinking behind it is usually based on the bladesmiths bend test where the spine of a "carbon" steel blade is tempered more than the edge thus allowing for a more "flexible" (softer) blade along the spine for heavy use (chopping) whilst retaining a hard (tough) edge for cutting. There is always a trade off between the two. A blade that's too hard is prone to chipping but retains an edge well and is good for small knives whilst a large blade that is softer won't have as good edge retention. The terms I've used here aren't the correct scientific terms but convey the idea behind it. Usually someone comes along with the correct terminology ensuring no one understands them unless they have a masters in metallurgy :)

I said tool steel in the beginning to differentiate between carbon steel and Stainless but both steels contain carbon and as such are carbon steels. The alloys differ to achieve there respective properties, but all knives are mostly carbon steel.
To answer the original question. Yes and no. You need bigger equipment for larger blades and most steels require temp controlled HT equipment but there are some tool steels that don't and can be heat treated with reasonable accuracy using traditional methods (coal or gas). Like the 10 series, 5160, O1 etc. More modern alloys require more controlled environments.
The process of heat treating and tempering differs to almost every steel type used and the tempering process can vary according to blade type and required use. That's why every steel type has a data sheet with recommended, tried and tested methods.
For example, I am currently busy with a very large bug out knife in N690. It was hardened in my oven at the required temp that I would use for any size knife in N690 but the soak time would vary to how thick the steel is. This one is 6mm. I then had my friend temper it in his tempering oven at 180 deg C for 1 hour and it came out at 58 RC which for me is 100% fine for a large knife that is primarily for chopping. For a smaller knife I would aim for 59/60 RC, maybe even 61 RC in N690 and that would give me a knife with good edge retention yet still able to field sharpen with basic tools. Some steels can get up to 64/65RC with amazing edge retention and the process would be different with them, some even requiring sub zero quenching, but how the hell do you sharpen that in the field? To me that's one very important aspect of a knife. Knife making can become a very complicated science with some of the steels used today. But the tried and tested steels that have been used over the last century are still being used coz they do what they are supposed to and for the average knife maker it doesn't require a bank loan from the Devil to work with them.
5160 has been used on large (and smaller knives) for a long time because it works and because bladesmiths have sold the "it will bend not snap" story with there HT process. Don't put aside some SS's though. Randal has used 440B for years with good results and many use N690 on large blades. I still say if you can snap a 6mm N690 knife then you should of been using a chain saw.
 

Shinken

Native
Nov 4, 2005
1,317
3
43
cambs
It’s the same really;

more depends on what you want the knife to do.

Let’s assume that it’s going to be a big chopping knife and you want it to be tough.

You could

A: Harden and temper the whole thing uniformly but temper it quite soft (something like 56HRC)
B: Harden the edge leaving the back soft
C: Harden the whole blade then draw some temper from the spine

The advantage of both b and c, is the blade will have potentially a harder edge and softer back thus being tough but still holding an edge well (maybe edge of 58 HRC and back of 50 HRC) A lot depends on blade thickness as to how soft the back will be so it works best with wide knives.

I have never been very good at method C and get good results with B.

So get the blade up to hardening temp or a little beyond non magnetic, try to get a nice even colour. For the next stage you may want a block in your quenchant bath that is about 1 third of the width of the blade under the surface of the oil. The idea is to quench only the edge; this means you will have to rock the blade to get the tip to quench also. You will probably get some fire so have a non flammable lid handy. Then temper as normal to the hardness you want the edge not the spine.

This differential HT works best with the more simple carbon steels 01 works but you don’t get as big a difference in hardness as some something like W1 and I’ve never seen anyone doing it on stainless or air hardening steels.
 

Shinken

Native
Nov 4, 2005
1,317
3
43
cambs
Also would would use the same steel types as shorter blades or not? Would 5160 be a better choice and please explain why?

Ah missed this bit.

Again this depends on what it has to do. Some longer blade's are not for chopping but slicing such as various kitchen knives, Some are for chopping etc etc.

Again lets assume you want a tough knife that can chop wood?

Then It will matter what steel you choose. What steel you choose will depend on what balance of toughness/edge retention you want. 5160 would be very good for a chopping knife because it is tough and quite good and holding an edge. the same goes for 01.

There are tougher steels than these, but you lose some edge retention with them. Generally thats the way it is with steel, you gain something and lose something else. Ie gain toughness lose hardness (edge retention)

Id avoid stainless on a big chopping knife, they can be made to work. You will probably have to temper them softer to get the desired toughness though and you sont be able to differentially harden them

Without going into steel chemistry it would be difficult to answer beyond that. Wayne Goodard has a good book that easy to understand for most of us http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wonder-Knif...&qid=1411886119&sr=8-2&keywords=wayne+goddard
 

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