Quackery or the real deal?

[rik_uk3]

Rog, it won't cure cancer and don't believe all you see in a couple of video's. I do know cannabis is leading to more psychotic episodes in some individuals and reduced intelligence levels in later life for many of those using it early on in their lives.

 

[Fat Rog]

Rog, it won't cure cancer

Are you sure of this? Absolutely 100% certain? The evidence to suggest that it can is pretty strong, and consists of more than a couple of videos on youtube.

I understand the dangers of substance abuse. In my first post I stated quite clearly that I am not advocating the use of cannabis as a recreational drug. Morphine is widely used by the medical establishment for its painkilling properties. It is also abused by smack heads in the form of heroin. Should we ban Morphine for medical use because of this? I think not. Should we ban paracetemol because people can get hooked on it? Should dentists refrain from using cocaine to numb your mouth before going in with the drill? If morphine and cocaine can be used by clinicians (under strict controls) then why can cannabis not be, if it is proved to be beneficial? There is a gulf of difference between using a drug to treat an illness and using it to get "high". I agree that there is much evidence that prolonged abuse of cannabis can lead to mental health problems. Just like it can if you abuse alcohol, heroin, cocaine, not mention an ever increasing number of prescription drugs that we are told are good for us, but turn out to have nasty side effects. Too much of a good thing is as bad as none.

Did you search Prof. Nutt? Do a google search on the science behind the claims, you might be surprised at what you find. I was.

 

[JohnC]

Sorry for your loss Rog,
there are trials of cannabis as a pain killer going on, we do them, it has potential, we also used it for anti emetic studies. It wasnt for everyone, middle aged people didnt do well on it.

A huge number of substances get tested for their anti cancer properties in cell cultures, and only a few demonstrate the potential to be taken further into in vivo studies, and only a few of these show enough activity and few enough side effects to get into studies being given to people, (healthy volunteers first), then finally into the phases of clinical studies, and even then, a promising substance can turn out to be less useful than was initially thought.

The newer system for drug development is, with the newer understanding and work on the cell, and what makes a cancer cell, pathways and systems or biomarkers are identified, old drugs that have had their activity mapped over the years can be used, or entirely new substances made to exploit the pathway. The hop is a low input/high output instead of the previous high input/low output drug development will speed up the process, and cost less... Fingers crossed.

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

Rog, if there were conclusive medical trials to indicate the efficacy of cannabis in oncology treatments it would be used. There aren't so they don't.

 

[RonW]

I can not help but wonder.....
I see loads of people screaming and shouting that the established medical system is completely trustworthy and that many alternative practices are for quakes.... and at the same time condemn those who say otherwise, all this being backed up with stories like I have experience this and that and i know someone so and so...

The medical system we have today is not the one that has brought us this far and the alternative sector is not the same one as the socalled witches of the medieval times, altough the latter almost gets the same treatment.
The modern medical system is driven by money and profits these days. I am not talking about those who look after us day after day. I am very thankfull for all those paramedics, nurses and doctors, who do their best for us on the most ungoddly hours day after day. I am also very gratefull for those who discovered those wonderfull cures for horrible illnesses and did tonnes of research.
I am however ralking about those socalled researchers and developers of drugs (yes, the farmaceutical companies) that do so with only one thing in mind; money.... and the more they can rake in, the better. There is much evidence to be found (if you can be bothered to look had enough for yourself) that the farmaceutical industries have taken over control and dominate the opinions and beliefs of both common man and medical staff alike.
A very clear example (to me) is the cholesterol-lie. I have been diagnosed with a level which was far to high and those was perscribed medication. I have been digging for information and truth for almost a decade and my conclusion was simple; it is all a lie! Why? Simple....
There is no proven connection between a high cholesterollevel (of which there are 3) and heart- and bloodvesselillnesses. I searched, I asked the specialist (several of them, actually) with each giving me a different answer than any of his/hers colleages and with even one admitting he and the medical world did not know exactly. It is all based on an assumption, made in the late '50's and this had been developed into a brainwashing lie. if you repeat the lie often and hard enough, it becomes a truth, because people first believe it and that take it for a fact without question. Those who do question are either ridiculed or simply banned from the medical world and that is proven.
The medication you get for your "illness" is a) very expensive. So expensive that in Holland it has been taken out of the healthcareprogramme by several insurancecompanies, so you have to pay for it yourself. On the otherhand if we take the standards for save levels of cholesterol, given to us, than between 50 and 75% of the entire population should be classified as a patient!
Furthermore it has been proven, and I have experoienced the effects myself, that the medication has some nasty side-effects, ranging from fatigue, to painfull joints and mussles even up to cancer and death. The latter 2 have been spared on me..... All in all enough reason for me to quit my medication and listen to what felt right within myself.
Problem is that insurancecampanies used the false information as a means of pressurising you to take the meds or you will not get an insurance and if you than do get an insurance you are classified as a riskfactor and pay up to 3 times the usual amount....
The same story goes for the vaccinationprogrammes the world over and we are taliking children here now! Search and read for yourself. I challenge you! I have 3 kids myself and I did for quit a few years.... I was not amused, to say the least.

Those mysterious roguediseases no one had heard of befor? Chickenflue? Mexicanflue? Where did they come from? And where did they go??? No one knows.... or claims to know, but millions of fluevaccinations have been sold and shot, allthough there were severe sideeffects, documented and proven. And guess where the money went.....
Exactly, to those who "research and develop" and then sell the stuff. You can read and dig into this story too. There's plenty to find and not just digital. I mean real studies, even published.
You just have to look hard, because there are many that rather not see these books and information circulate.

And if we are lied to about this, than what other matters are not entirely true?
I do not bash down on our medical system and staff. No way, but it would make sense if the sheeple, out there and in here alike, would look for answers themselves and question the laiddown "facts" instead of bleeting with the rest that all is peachy and well!

As for the alternative sector; yes, there are hordes of quakes. There are many that prey on the fear and lack of knowledge of sick and desperate people and these quakes, to me, are as bad or even worse, than the large companies. Both represent humans at their lowest level. But there are many that do a lot of good. Those people will tell you to see a regular doctor, they will tell you that their treatment is an aid, not the cure. Things like Reiki, aroma- and/or oiltherapy can give you that extra energy to help you heal. Acupunture can either help or heal. Those ancient orientals weren't idiots all together. They were highly developped, when we were running around in animalskins and clubbing each other of the head. Dismissing those things as nonsense or fraude is just plain stupid and ignorant.

If singing in the full moon, buttnacked with mushrooms behind your ears helps you get well, than please do so.... after you have sought an experts opinion, but do not shove it aside, just like that without questioning and thinking about it. That goes for both sides!

 

[boatman]

What twaddle about Cholesterol, it has to be controlled in some people and high cholesterol can be hazardous.

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

It's a fair point, Ron, that some alternatives may provide a complimentary service. But lets face it, when the chips are down and matters are serious, the established medical treatements are what will win the day - That isn't conjecture or my opinion, it's fact that is proven through statistical evidence and clinical trials.

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

I think for me there is a curve for alternative therapies. Id me more than open to trying complimentary or alternate solutions for minor ailments like cough, cold, tendinitus / muscle issues. If i got the big C id be along to the hospital in a flash.

Another thing i find interesting is that many alternative therapy practitioner disagree with eachother. I have a friend who is a traditional Chinese acupuncturist and he thinks the acupuncture performed at sports clinics and doctors surgeries cannot help at all as its not based on the meridians but just sticks a needle in the spot where the pain is. It is usually a short course taken by doctors or physiotherapists to top up their other skills. He also asserts that acupuncture is not as its best as a reactive treatment but as a wellness thing and should treat mind and body. He is currently having a lot of success with smoking cessation too which is interesting as again its very 'head based'.

I think Ron has it summed up well. If it helps you then do what you like. The danger is pushing too far down the line into very dangerous waters

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Are you sure of this? Absolutely 100% certain?

Bob Marley was known to light up a few joints in his time but it didn't stop him devoloping cancer. It would be interesting to know though, statistically, if the regular users of ganja have lower cancer rates.

 

[Fat Rog]

Rog, if there were conclusive medical trials to indicate the efficacy of cannabis in oncology treatments it would be used. There aren't so they don't.

Correct, there are no conclusive medical trails. There are however a number of ongoing trials into it, so perhaps, one day. GW Pharmaceutical (the makers of Sativex - a cannabis derived drug used to treat MS patients) are doing a trial to test its usefulness as a painkiller in cancer sufferers (is that the same one you mentioned JohnC?). This isn't using it to treat the cancer itself, of course. But it's a start.

The thing that hurts is when you read something like this: http://www.alternet.org/story/9257/pot_shrinks_tumors;_government_knew_in_'74
This was published in 2000. Why does it hurt? Well, think about it. The US government shut down a promising program in 1974 and, by all accounts tried to eradicate all evidence of its existence. Why? Who benefits? Certainly not the patients. Could the scientists have used this research to help develop an effective cancer treatment in the 38 years since then? We'll never know. That's why it hurts.

How then does this tie in with the original question -is it quackery or the real deal? Well, up until the ban, cannabis was considered an essential part of the kit by doctors and pharmacists. It's been used for thousands of years to treat a whole host of ailments. Doesn't mean it works. but then again, 20 years ago, they'd have never used maggots to treat a festering wound, or use leeches for a blood disorder, that sort of thing was medieval quackery of the worst kind, wasn't it?

I take my hat off to our doctors and nurses who work in cancer treatment, they did the best they could for my Dad and I am so grateful that they tried. I take my hat off too to those who are striving to find a cure, whether the cure is cannabis based or otherwise.

 

[Toddy]

Modern cannabis isn't the stuff of the past, Fat Rog. It's been so modified and specially bred to increase the 'high' that it's in a whole other world from the original.

It's a good painkiller, in some instances. That's it really, otherwise it's social use is really being affected by the higher strengths. Think tobacco, and the issues with that; it's pretty similar.
All the 'organic', 'natural', claims are just so much mince

I've been thinking on this, and BareThrills comment, backs this up too. One of our members is a BSc Hons accupuncturist. He says the same thing.
I think it comes down to the depth of training and commitment to learn of the practitioner. Knowing Paul I seriously doubt that a two day course would qualify anyone enough that I would consider them 'expert' enough to shove needles in me.....but then he really is a Holisitic therapist, while many others have just done a quick tick the boxes thing at the local beauty therapy school.......but they 'claim' to be 'accupuncturists'.

That holds true right across the Alternative Therapies. A qualified physiotherapist takes years of training; yet folks do a twelve week course (one night a week, and a written set of 'treatments'/case studies) at the local college in something or other about joints, and suddenly they're claiming to know it all.
Colour me disbelieving and dubious.

That there are AT's that work I have no doubt; I use some, I happily pay for someone to work on me with them; but I think the waters are incredibly muddied and maybe we really need to apply a healthy dose of scepticism.

Snake oil merchants just changed their pitch, it still doesn't make sugar water a panacea.
Does conventional western medicine have all the answers ? No, and it doesn't claim to, unlike some others.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[rik_uk3]

A lot of MS sufferers will smoke, more to relax than as a painkiller. I remember one palliative care patient we had in with us and he would say "off for a quick fag" and shuffle off to the smoking room. We all knew what he was smoking but turned a blind eye, the lad enjoyed it and was close to death; he still relied on morphine for pain relief.

 

[Toddy]

Good point, Richard

cheers,
M

 

[ex-member BareThrills]

Bushcraft is my therapy. Just been out for a lovely two hour walk with the dog and the family and i feel bloody amazing. My Qi runneth over