Public Liability Insurance

[wilderness]

Hi all, This is my first post ever on here and sorry it has to be such a formal topic, but I have run Bushcraft/Survival Courses in Devon and Somerset for some time and have found my Insurance climbing up and now rapidly getting excessive. I have never had a course member suffer a serious accident and never had a claim made against me. This has not stopped the increase. I was wondering if any of the other members in the group have experienced the same or is there anyone they can suggest for a quote?
By the way - I am researching this area in some depth now and would be willing to pass on my experiences to anyone in the same position along with the insurers I have contacted and their response.
I do have some knowledge of such claims having worked in defendant and claimant personal injury law for many years. Bushcraft being a devoted love and now small business.

Many thanks for any assistance you may have.

Phil

 

[Doc]

I'm currently reading about community woodland orgnisations and it is clear that they have similar problems. I understand that the entire industry is becoming increasingly risk adverse and voluntary groups/small businesses are perceived as high risk.

Apparently Zurich are more sympathetic than some insurers but I have no personal knowledge on this.

 

[Fluxus]

Hi Phil,
I do freelance Environmental Education work in the wilds of the west country. The only suitable insurance I could get to take kids out in the woods in a non voluntary capacity was through the institute for outdoor learning members preferential scheme. The broker is Jardine Lloyd Thompson and if your turnover is less than £25000 a year it costs just under £600 per annum for £5 million cover.
This year they put in an exclusion meaning that you are not covered against allegations of abuse (unless you fork out another £200!). It makes me wince writing the cheque and each year I consider not paying and doing something else - not the time yet I guess. I'd be very interested indeed if your researches turn up anything less expensive.

BTW - I saw an add for woodland owners public liability insurance for £50 a year through the small woods association but I guess thats just for folks walking through rather than paying clients.

 

[KIMBOKO]

I am also thinking of running a small number of courses but have come up with the lloyd jardine Outdoor activity insurance at about £600, but if you employ staff its nearer £1100. Non employed assistance would require their own cover.
All for a annual turnover of less than £25000.
I was also thinking I could run day courses involving the craft side of bushcraft without the camping and adventure outside!!!. As a craft worker insurance is about £90. I asked about cooking food and they were not able to give cover for food supplied and cooked on a course.
Does the lloyd jardine Outdoor cover include cooking food?
They also suggested I would need to have a food safety prep cert.
I would be interested in any of your investigations into insurance for Bushcraft activities.

 

[Ed]

I'm afraid insurance is just going to keep on going up, its the nature of the business

And I'm afraid 600 a year is about the average I have found.

I personally don't find this a problem as I teach everyweek throughout the year, so i do get my moneys worth, but to someone who only runs the occasional course I can see how such a big outlay can put people off

Ed

 

[KIMBOKO]

It seems that Bushcraft insurance has been lumped in with other exciting outdoor activities like climbing and canoeing, etc. where I think the risks of death and injury maybe higher.

I do have a few questions myself which I would be grateful to hear any answers.

Are there HSE implications in running Bushcraft courses?. Number of staff to pupils, minimum number of staff etc.
Is Local Council, Environmental Health registration required with preparing/supplying/cooking food on a course?.
Is a Certificate of food hygiene required?.
Does the Outdoor activities insurance cover the food side of things?. Are any these questions answered anywhere else?.

 

[Eric_Methven]

I've found that doing a proper risk assessment for each activity meets most of the HSE requirements. Food is a whole 'nother ballgame.

If I'm doing a course I normaly just provide a midday meal that they cook themselves - stuff like bread rolls and a pot of boiling water and some instant packets of soup. A table with bread and butter and various sandwich fillings. That way my clients get to make something they like, I'm not actually doing any cooking and the food supplied comes from a supermarket that has it's own food hygiene certificate.

The other way is to have a 'private club' that your clients 'join'. As a private club, you don't need the food hygiene cert to cook and serve food - but you can only feed your 'club members'. If your event is open to the public you can't even let them taste the food you are cooking.

We do this with our living history events. Al the members are in our 'club' - actually it's a society, and we cook over an open fire with cast iron and wooden utensils. It would be impossible to get a food hygiene cert using fifteenth century utensils so we get away with it by keeping it private. The public often ask if they could have a taste of some medieval concoctiion and as much as we would like to, we have to say no.

So, there are ways round it as far as food is concerned, but PLI is getting to be a joke. I was quoted £600 for doing a pole lathe course and the fee was just £700. I told the organisers to forget it so they put me under theur PLI and had me down as a volunteer (although I still got paid).

Eric

 

[Ed]

Its still a good idea to do your Certificate of food hygiene just so you are aware of the risks. Its only 1 day course and a multiple choice test..... easy..... but yes, if you serve food as part of your course (and not a private club) then you need the certificate. Strangely though there is more worry about actual food served than game prep in the wild ...... as there are no permanant surfaces to build up food bacteria out in the field

On a side note, getting through your hse and environmental health issues with courses is easy. I have found them both very helpful in setting up my schemes. Rather than trying to close you down, they'll help you get legal to stay open

Ed

 

[wilderness]

OK so far craft insurance is cheapest but very limited on cover- be warned probably NOT covered for walking (Guided or Nav )Jardine, is Circa £600.00 and I await sight of their policy documents before agreeing the cover. I am also awaiting a quote from Perkins and Slade Brokers but they normally expect a Walking qualification (ML or Basic Expedition Award) luckily I have this but I dont expect the cover to be cheap - I was also asked for my risk assesments and child policy (again I have - but be aware). For the record you do not need a Health & Safety Policy if you employ under 5 people. Nevertheless - risk asses as much as possible. I'll give a full report once completed. Thanks for the interest.

 

[Alchemist]

Honest hard working people constrained by the rules of the unimaginative. I loath this whole idea of liability. What these cretins fail to understand is that the pupil has a choice. yes, they do need reassurance that you are safe enough, but again, that is their choice. Lets start a revolution.

Who is more the fool? The fool or the fool who follows him.

 

[redflex]

is it possible that bushcraft could run a Certificate of food hygiene course for members I know there would be a lot of interest in it.

 

[Fenlander]

Very interesting......i just contacted the IOL for advice concerning food hygiene on courses and they referred me to this thread! Somehow I had completely missed it

 

[KIMBOKO]

So who is IOL ?

 

[Jared]

Institute for Outdoor Learning

 

[KIMBOKO]

Thanks. Its friday and I'm Brain dead.