Problems with Japanese water-stones

[-Switch-]

For years I've been sharpening my tools with an old stone of my grandads (I've no idea what grit it is) and a bit of 3-in-1 oil. With some stropping afterwards they've always come out sharp enough to shave arm hair, with a little pressure.

I decided, after reading alot about them on here (and a little influence from RM), to get a full set of Japanese water-stones - 800, 1200 and 6000 grit. The thing is, I'm not able to get my tools any sharper than I did with my Grandads old oil stone.
The water stones are a lot more effort to use, were more expensive and have produced identical results. I can't help but feel dissapointed .

Am I doing anything wrong at all? Has anyone else experienced this? Perhaps I was wrongly expecting miracle results from my new stones

 

[fred gordon]

I certainly couldn't say I'm an expert but I really like the Japanese Waterstones. I used to use the grit and oil alternative but find the Waterstones much easier, and a lot less messy, to use. I wouldn't expect one to sharpen my tools any more/less than the other. Personally I find the Waterstones a treat and would agree with what RM says about them. However, I'm sure others on here will give you a much more technical opinion.

 

[Ed]

Am I doing anything wrong at all?

Not at all.... you should be able to get a blade shaving sharp with either an oil stone and strop or using waterstones and strop. The reason waterstones tend to be popular is when it comes to sharpening in the field. With the oil stone you need to take oil and it can be messey if said oil leaks from your stone (or bottle) while in your pack, and its also a good idea to carry some detergant to get the oil off your hands afterwards.... where as a waterstone you can just dunk in a river for 10 mins... use it and let it dry out.


Ed

 

[spamel]

Are you maintaining exactly the same angle every time you push the blade down the stone? Sometimes, people slightly vary it and this can have an adverse effect on your bevel. My Dad has been sharpening knives for years, and I reckon he is actually crap at sharpening!

If you have a problem with maintaininjg the same angle, a piece of wood shaped so that your knife, when rested on it, is at the right angle could help. Place it at the end of the stone, rest your knife on it and then push away from the wood and you will have the angle set. Do this for every time you push the blade and eventually you will get the memory in your muscles that will have you maintaining the same angle every time.





Or buy a Scandi ground knife!!

 

[Shinken]

Waterstone wont make it any sharper but they are a lot less messy! I just love the feel of sharpening on a whetstone, to me whetstones are a pleasure to use and oilstones arent!

 

[-Switch-]

Spamel,
The knife I most often sharpen is a Frosts Mora, so I'm used to sharpening a scandi grind. My technique is quite good and I can consistantly get a good edge on it and my other tools (axe, bush knife with a second bevel, stainless blade, carbon blade) but my main issue is that maybe I was expecting the water stones to be alot better than they are

Shinken,
Please explain to me how you manage to create less mess with water stones! The slurry they produce gets everywhere.
Or maybe I'm just very messy

 

[Shinken]

Well you make a mess then you just run it under the tap and whoalla no mess. Try running an oilstone under the tap.

See what i mean?

 

[Gailainne]

I know you were being facetious Shinken, but please, mix an oilstone with water, and get a new oilstone, cause that ones fu....eh damaged beyond repair.
Edit You learn something new every day, it seems water or kero, and a flat stone (concrete) is used to reflatten an oil stone, appologies for giving out wrong info.

I sharpen workshop tools, chisels, plane blades on an oil stone, but I could'nt get a decent edge on my knifes with one, probably because its 2 edges (my supposition) and switching screwed with my rhythm...or something .

Since Delamere and GrahamS's lesson in sharpening I've been practising, using the waterstones, and I'm getting there, not hair popping, but I havent sorted out a strop yet. I think from what I've read and from Grahams excellent lesson, the final 5% (as usual) is the key.

Yeah the slurry gets everywhere, but its also easy to clean, you cant say that about oil.

I'm still trying to decide whether to keep my waterstones wet/sealed, or allow them to dry, and in the long run will it matter ?

Stephen

 

[SOAR]

I used to have an oil stone that was my dads and I had no success at sharpening with it, then I, like you forked out alot of money for some waterstones and I had alot of success with them. I recently messed up my gransfors axe on a rock, and I was forced to try and rectify my mistake by resharpening. I had never done this with an axe before and after 10 minutes on my waterstones it is now sharper than when it left the factory. I think it is horses for courses really I prefer the waterstones, maybee like you said you expected more for your money.

 

[Shinken]

damaged beyond repair

~Thats what i meant try running an oilstone under the tap and you get a mess. You dont with waterstones!!

 

[Lore]

Running an oilstone under a tap is not going to ruin your oilstone. If the oilstone has been used with oil the water will just run off the stone. Both oilstones and waterstones will give hair shaving sharpness. When using oilstones you only need enough oil to lubricate the stone ( it helps to stop the pores in stone from clogging) you do not need a litre of your favorite engine oil. Water stones can be easier to use in the field as has been said but oilstones can have their place to.

 

[jojo]

I use waterstones all the time. I haven't used an oil stones in years. The main reason being the mess the oil makes and I found the oil was no good for the skin on my hands. Water is non-toxic, oil is not.

 

[Graham_S]

at the end of the day, both are just methods of grinding metal away from the edge.
any method of removing metal will sharpen a knife.
waterstones are not a "magic wand" for sharpening. they, like any other technique will require practice and skill to use effectively.
I find the waterstones do have a nice consistent grit and take the metal off evenly and under control, and can get to a very high standard of finish due to the ultra fine grits. but they are not the be all and end all of sharpening.

 

[-Switch-]

One thing to be said of my water stones is that they have encouraged me to be a little less hasty when sharpening and to take more care. They (especially the 6000 grit) are quite soft compared to my oil stone and it's easy to make one mistake and end up putting a nasty groove on the surface of the stone.

I've not yet had cause to use sharpening stones ''in the field'' so that benefit didn't occur to me. I agree that a water stone would be alot more convenient to use when away from the workshop, not to mention more environmentally friendly - there's nothing worse than patches of oil to mess up a nice camp area, especially if it then starts raining

 

[weaver]

Well, let's see. You were already expert and satisfied with one method, heard about something new, tried it and now you are not ecstatic with the results. Hmmmm?

Perhaps too high expectations. Perhaps not enough time to experience the difference. Perhaps not fully utilizing the tool to it's best advantage.

Water stones should be totally swamped with water, not just a dab like the oil on a Carborundum stone. I use a flat plastic box to hold my stone, filled half full of water it is easy to keep the stone very wet. Smooth stones take a little longer to grind away the metal so be patient. By the time you get through the 6000 stone your blade should be mirror smooth.

Any reason you skipped the 3000-4000 range? 800 to 1200 is a small jump compared with 1200 to 6000. I would add one more stone. Probably 3000.

I use a 600 diamond for rough work, a 1000 water stone for smoothing and 3000 for final polish. 6000 would be nice but I don't really need that fine an edge. A red rouge on hard leather brings it close enough for me.

 

[-Switch-]

Weaver,

The reason I have those particular grits is that I bought a kit which included a 800g and a 6000g with no intermediate grit stone. It was recommended to me that I buy the 1200g to fill that gap.

And I was by no means 'expert' with my oil stone I had got to the point where I could achieve a satisfactory finish on my tools but wanted to get them to the next stage. I didn't want to invest in another oil stone of a finer grit because I was unsure what grit my current stone was. I'd read and heard alot about how wonderful these water stones are so decided to invest, hoping I would be able to improve my sharpening technique and results.

I also can't get a 'mirror' finish on my tools with the 6000 grit stone, whereas I could with the oilstone and a bit of stropping. There seems to be no change in the quality of finish -in terms of sharpness and smoothness - between the 1200g and the 6000g stones. This doesn't seem right

 

[British Red]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

Red

 

[Gailainne]

Lucky man Switch, jump at that offer mate.

 

[-Switch-]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

Red

Yes I do use one. The question is - am I using it properly?

I've had conflicting information thrown at me about nagura stones, some of which I've acted upon:

1. It is used to remove the black marks left on the finer grit stones as they remove the burrs from the steel. The slurry is then washed off before using.

2. It is used to ''remove the protective varnish from the surface of the stone before it is first used''. (This didn't make much sense to me as the stone had no varnish on it whatsoever.)

3. It is used to create a slurry on top of the stone prior to sharpening which aids the stone in removing the metal from the knife, leaving a mirror finish.

4. It is used to 'dress' the surface of the stone incase of any nicks or dents created while sharpening. Again, any slurry created must be washed off prior to use.


Can you shed any light on this Red? Or anyone else for that matter


And thanks for the offer of sharpening it for me Red. I'll see what responses I get from here first and act on them and if it still doesn't improve then I may just take you up on that offer

 

[Gailainne]

Switch
I dont know if your aware but theres an extra in one of Ray Mears DVD's on sharpening knifes, using water stones, it was very good, always better seeing it realtime, but clear consise instructions, well structured, I think its available as a download, but don't have the link, hopefully someone else will.

BTW No. 3 slurry to aid sharpening.

Stephen