Problems with Japanese water-stones

[-Switch-]

I own that particular RM DVD and have seen the tutorial which is very good, but the other 'uses' for the nagura stone I have mentioned have also come from supposedly reliable sources so I didn't want to trust one more than the rest. (no.2, in case you're interested, was written on a bit of paper tucked inside the box that my nagura stone came in).

I have a feeling yourself and Ray are probably right, but I have know him to be wrong about certain things before! (the taste of pine-needle tea for starters )

 

[British Red]

I use mine primarily to create a fine slurry on my 6,000 grit stone for finishing (#3). I don't think its abrasive enough to flatten a stone if that was needed - works fantastically for that final mirror polish though. I truly do get a mirror shine.

I wonder - how many passes are you using mate?

I sharpen out nicks on an crosscut file. then a coarse oilstone to lose the file marks.

Then 100 passes on alternate directions on 800 between

250 passes alternate on 1200

500 passes alternate on 6000

500 passes alternate using a nagura paste

buff the wire for 50 passes or so on a buffing compound leather strop

Now thats a complete re-dress from badly damaged metal - far less is needed on a dull edge. Its a job I can do with one one good DVD though!

Red

 

[-Switch-]

I use mine primarily to create a fine slurry on my 6,000 grit stone for finishing (#3). I don't think its abrasive enough to flatten a stone if that was needed - works fantastically for that final mirror polish though. I truly do get a mirror shine.

I wonder - how many passes are you using mate?

I sharpen out nicks on an crosscut file. then a coarse oilstone to lose the file marks.

Then 100 passes on alternate directions on 800 between

250 passes alternate on 1200

500 passes alternate on 6000

500 passes alternate using a nagura paste

buff the wire for 50 passes or so on a buffing compound leather strop

Now thats a complete re-dress from badly damaged metal - far less is needed on a dull edge. Its a job I can do with one one good DVD though!

Red

Whoa...

If that's anything to go by then I'm not making nearly enough passes.

This may sound like a silly question but are more passes required on water stones than an oil stone to achieve the same finish? I'm suspecting the answer is 'yes' as the water stones are softer?
I tend to shy away from making too many passes for fear of wearing the blade down unnecessarily. Perhaps more confidence is what i need...

 

[Gailainne]

Mate thank you for the needle tea comment, made me smile, which have been few and far between of late.

The Nagura stone, all your options dont really dismiss any of the others, clean up the stone, clean any marks, create a slurry, your preparing the surface, creating a clean smooth surface to start from, thats no different from an oil stone, so wheres your problem ? If I may, I think your over analysing things, at the end of the day your sharpening a blade, just like you've done no doubt hundred of times with an oil stone, but this time with a water stone, slightly different prep, but the motion is the same, and the result is the same, ouch if you aint careful .
If your worried about ruining a good knife do what I did, practice on a cheap blade, an 8 quid mora would be perfect, if you dont have a suitable blade to hand, Me I still have shi....eh lots of knifes that need a seeing too.

My ramblings, after a few could be intoxicating beverages.


Stephen

 

[British Red]

Its not so much the number of passes as passes per grit. My oil stones are relatively coarse - so they take off a lot of metal in each pass. As they get finer (higher grit), they take off much less metal so need more asses - its almost a "polishing" action thats required to get a perfect edge.

Don't misunderstand me - you don't need that many passes on a slightly dull blade. Thats what I do to a completely ruined blade that I have to take a couple of mm off to restore. Once its really sharp it tends to stay that way unless you chip it - a few passes on a high grit is all thats needed. I agree not to take of loads of metal - but until its shaving shar, you have to take enough off to do the job. Each grit should be polishing out the scratch marks of the last

Red

 

[-Switch-]

Thanks for all the helpful comments guys.
I'm gonna get the stones out again tomorrow (bit tired right now) and see what I can do.

 

[-Switch-]

I got my water stones out again and had another go.

I decided I would clean up an old stainless steel lock knife I've had for a few years. The blade was so blunt you could hold it very tightly in your hand and drag it along your palm without so much as a scratch, so it was a prime candidate for a good sharpening
Also it was part serrated (the main reason it's not been used for so long) and I wanted to get rid of the serrations and have an edge along the whole length of the blade.

I got rid of the serrations with a file and also filed the rest of the blade to suit the profile of the new edge. I then used Reds method detailed above to grind a completely new bevel on the blade then sharpen and hone it to a good, keen edge. (I really should get a digital camera so I can post up pictures of this kind of thing )

With a good number of passes on the stones and the proper use of my nagura stone I've managed to get a very sharp edge on my knife.
It's sharp enough that it will shave the hair off my arm without any pressure - just touching the hairs is enough to cut them.


I'm very happy with this and it prompted me to have another go at my Mora - with the same results.

Looks like all I needed was confidence and patience, not to mention a nudge in the right direction from you guys, so thanks :You_Rock_

 

[British Red]

I'm really pleased that worked out for you mate - they are a great thing but as you say, its a patience and confidence thing. I find it kind of therapeutic and do it infront of the TV on a coffee table. I quite enjoy when I get up to the fine blades testing the edge and smiling to myself

Red

 

[Andy]

just a thought but IMO if the blade doesn't shave before you strop something isn't right.
If you have fine stones the strop shouldn't really need to take a burr off the edge as the strop will tear the metal off rather then cut, The reason you add a stropping paste to the strop is to make it cut rather then tear. If you jump from 1200 to 6000 grit you wont end up with a edge like yuo would get from going through all the grits inbetween but you can cut off the burrs left by the 1200g, this may be a better suited edge for the work your doing. FWIW I normally sharpen to about 2500 and then jump to a 10k to cut any burrs off which leaves a more even edge then most people get with stropping. A unloaded strop will to an extrent pull the steel out making the final edge slightly thinner but this wont be as strong as something where it's cut off with fine abrasive. It is ideal for a straight razor as you can pull teh edge back.

 

[dwardo]

I dont know if its right or not but i find that its takes ages the first time round to put "my" edge on a knife.... May also be due to me having to get used to the shape of each blade and even handle before i can get it hair popping infact im having a right mare with one now lol but i allways get there in the end

Maybe its a tiny bit more patience and familiarity before you crack it

 

[Brian.T]

That sounds well weird to me Switch. Do you use a nagura stone on the 6000g?

Tell you what. Do you want to sharpen it on my stones for you? I can have a look at the blade and see if I can improve on the current edge if you like - I can certainly get the average scandy sharp enough to slice a wet cigarette paper. If I can get it to a place where you are happy with it, at least we'll know it can be done. I'd be happy to take pictures of how I do it if that helps?

Red

Hi BR. I know you werent talking to me, but personally I would be grateful if you be able to do a pictorial of knife sharpening. I have a little experience of sharpening chisels, but to be honest I have never really managed to perfect that. Its obviously the technique.

 

[British Red]

Brian,

I have done a simple one int the past (trying to show how you don't need fancy tools and so forth)

Have a look here to see if it helps. If you have any specific questions on waterstones I'd be happy to help

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11571

Red

 

[British Red]

Dwardo - many "factory" bevels are as rough as a badgers backside. I often have to start on a coarse stone to grind out bevel problems and then work through the grits. A recent axe was so bad I started with a cross cut file . Once its right, its easy - don't be frightened to take some metal off - even a Mora can be hugely improved by a good sharpening job to take of the small secondary

Red

 

[Brian.T]

Brian,

I have done a simple one int the past (trying to show how you don't need fancy tools and so forth)

Have a look here to see if it helps. If you have any specific questions on waterstones I'd be happy to help

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11571

Red

Many thanks, I'll have a look later