Primitive Living

[THOaken]

Modern living standards are very different from living in a roundhouse.
The roundhouse is very comfortable though, and it does not need massive heating to create a micro climate that is not only 'survivable' in the coldest of weather, but is actually protective and place to thrive.

It does need a total mind shift though.

Radiant heat from the centre slowly diffuses throughout the structure and the space contained within. It is not cut off from the outside world but the structure baffles the winds, it breathes with the elements. It will flex with wind, with sunshine, with rain, with the weight of snow.
It will never be 'bone' dry, but it is certainly tinder dry.

No chimney (which would act like a flue and draw the fire, meaning more fuel needed and heat wasted to the atmosphere) means that smoke fills the cone. That smoke suffocates sparks and protects the material of the roof from insect infestation, from fungus, keeps it drying from the inside out (like goretex ) and coats anything put up there in a protective layer. Wooden tool handles end up shiny black like ebony, for instance.

Much better than any cold underheated box.

Totally biodegradeable, the roof and the floor rushes could (and were) routinely recycled into the midden heaps that were spread on to the land as fertiliser.

The walls are double hurdles stuffed with dry plant material. If the area is dry then they can be daubed, but that's not always possible. Like Tudor lathe and plaster and split beams/cruck framed structures, dry footing is necessary if the wattle and daub is used.

The biggest mind shift is that the lifestyle of the people who created the round houses was very much outdoors.
Indoors was for chilled out company, dry-ish storage of materials and tools, a safe place to bring animals at night and warm, dry, sleeping quarters for people.
Outdoors was for farming, hunting, fishing, good light to work by, skin prep, butchery, threshing, etc.,

Fuel poverty only really comes about with chimneys, with towns, with cold stone buildings and in areas without peat or hardwood timber. Even the 'hingin' lum' (wooden hood type chimney found in some black houses, totally unconnected to the hearth) is better than a fixed 'drawing' chimney, for fuel use.

Can it be done nowadays ?
Of course it can, but there's no easy way to keep things like books and electronics dry and dust free in them.
The buildings need constant small attentions. The owners need to pay heed to the building and it's environment and make timely repairs and restorations. The biodegradeable bit means that things do decay and need replacing.

It's a very seasonal living, and that means nearly 16 hours of dark for a large part of the year. It means fewer possessions and very little of the trappings of modern life.
Doesn't mean it's a bad life though, or an uncomfortable or unhealthy one.
After all, we're only here now because our ancestors lived very well like that

Mary

Brilliant post, Mary. Very informative. Thanks.

 

[British Red]

No chimney (which would act like a flue and draw the fire, meaning more fuel needed and heat wasted to the atmosphere) means that smoke fills the cone

I do wonder where the idea that drawing chimneys / flues lack fuel efficiency comes from? It may certainly be true of open fires where air flow cannot be controlled under chimneys but is certainly not true of any efficient stove design. Our main stove is, for example, over 80% efficient - meaning that sub 20% of generated heat escapes.

http://www.esse.com/range-cookers/ironheart/

In a house designed to be heated by such a device (low ceilings, thick walls etc.) I venture to suggest that far less fuel would be required than in a flueless environment - particularly because the "thermal mass" that heavy iron stoves possess keeps the radiated heat at a low level where the people are.

Fuel poverty only really comes about with chimneys, with towns, with cold stone buildings and in areas without peat or hardwood timber.

Also through lack of time "in situ" - being forced to burn green wood sticks - or sectional round wood without proper processing . I have only now got to an appropriate woodpile after several years - 10 cubic metres a year for three years. That may sound a huge amount - but bear in mind a wheelbaroow full of logs is circa 100 litres - so a cubic metre is 10 barrows full. 10 cubic metres is 100 days of burning a barrow of logs a day and assumes no fire at all for 2/3 of the year. I greatly suspect that a barrow of logs a day will not seem excessive to heat a roundhouse - so having twenty to thirty cubic metres of firewood seasoning will not be profligate - and probably not sufficient. Without coppice, transporting that wood to site is likely to be the largest chore, although processing with axe and saw will get old really fast.

Trunks are far harder to transport than arm thick cordwood which is the ideal size to work with hand tools - and harder to process. Coppice takes time to establish though for firewood - five to seven years on even a short cycle.

The one advantage the larger dwellings do have is that heat is relatively communal - less rooms, less houses indeed - so the work can be shared in creating the firewood.

 

[THOaken]

I'd like to remind everyone that the forum is almost complete. 90% complete, in fact. You can see a forum button on Oakenwise.com, but it's currently password locked. The forum will open in the next few hours.

 

[Toddy]

British Red, your stove and it's feeding heats a very modern house (relative though that may be)
One peat stack (and peat is poor fuel) heats a house everyday for a year. If you can augment that with 'sticks' then it lasts even longer. A barrow of logs a day is a huge amount of timber to burn. I've sat beside a round house fire and kept it alight all day and evening and if I used a third of that I'd be surprised. Small fire, food cooking in clay pots and baking on hot stones beside it, the fire takes it's time to burn It's not a bonfire.

Your metal stove is a huge expense to people who lived a roundhouse lifestyle.....metal is precious...and expensive....mind that mind-shift I spoke of ? well there it is.

Split timbers or faggots are stacked inside the roundhouse walls....again, they breathe and dry out and provide another baffling/ insulating layer. It's surprising just how little fuel is needed to warm the space. But then, that space isn't enclosed, cut off, divided into hardwalled rooms.

Chimney technology 'pulls' a fire, makes it flare, feeds it by drawing air through it. That's why they are set up with adjusting vents.

Hearths 'can' be set up with tuers, but usually it's a gentler burn, it is not a 'forced' fire; indeed that is most definitely not what is wanted. It's a heat source, a cooking source, a warmer central area with heat diffused. Even when out the hearth is warm; it's always easy to create a fire there....unlike in a lump of cold metal.

Within a modern house a stove is a good thing; in a round house it's a total anomally.

Mary

 

[Llwyd]

THOaken, don't worry about what some people on here say. Sadly the internet is full of pointscorers and naysayers, this forum though seems to have more that it's fair share. You're project looks interesting, hope it goes well for you.

Some people have simply done this in the past and are passing on mistakes and realities. Better to learn from others than to do the same thing needlessly.

Wood burners are an industrial answer to the problem of modern people who require 21 degrees C or so. They do need feeding vast quantities of wood and send a lot of heat out into the atmosphere.

A central fire with no chimney projects heat out all round for a start. The roof and walls of a roundhouse are very well insulated and the main problem might well be feeling too hot rather than too cold. Of course it can be chilly getting up in the morning but it always was until central heating came in. Unless they burned peat I do no believe the myth that prehistoric people kept a fire going all the time. Reports of tribes like the Hadza indicate that they light a fire whenever they need one or feel like having one.

In terms of quantities used, those who claime tons of roundwood are needed must explain how the same village on the same site approximately could use wood for fuel, have limited access to it, yet be in place for even thousands of years in one form or another without denuding the woods. The reduction in woodland was in response to the needs of agriculture and of course coal came into use with the massive population growth of the last 300 or so years.

Main issue with the roundhouse is the respiratory issues their occupants developed. Same as early castles etc. Someone will come along to counterpoint this I am sure and say how great they are but really the chimney was quite a step forward if you want to live a longer life.
In 1980 my close family consisted of 7 houses and about 25 people. A good sized village but the families were larger the further back you go. We used the same woodlot to heat and cook since the land was first granted in 1789 and it is still wooded to this day. Every home used between 10-15 cords a year and were never 21C at the best of times. More like 8-10C. Things got better in the mid 80`s when better R-value insulation was available. We also built the 7 houses and many others plus barns etc. all off that land. We hunted and made maple sugar there too. Deforestation only occurs when some idiot decides he can level all the trees for profit.

I do not think that a fire going all the time is a myth. A minimal smudge fire at the very least as fire lighting really is a pain in the butt. Also I think it is needed for the survival of the structure. All structures deteriorate unless heated enough to reduce humidity to acceptable levels. In modern homes this is about 40%. When I was a kid even in August there was still a fire going in the kitchen at all times. Without this minimal fire going, black mold starts to cover everything. They may not have been scientifically literate but iron age people were not stupid either and would figure out pretty quick that black mold in the home leads to a lot of dead kids.

Many monastic / religious retreats were self contained and were single sex. Yes those folk who don't reproduce may have been said to fail in an evolutionary sense because they haven't passed on their genes but they can lead a fullfilling life in other ways. In many comunal societies (human and animal) there are members who don't breed and help to support the wider group and so shared genes in order to promote survival.
So the project would be viable with or without mixed genders.

I like women. I hear they are better than sheep. Not having women in your community is just messed up. Say what you like about monasteries but secluding yourself away from the other gender is just going to lead to mental health issues. Women surprisingly are smart enough to see the big picture and that is very important to the survival and well being of any group.

 

[British Red]

I do understand where your coming from Mary, but, respectfully, I'll dispute your firewood figures based on simple physics. If you heat a roundhouse, by burning a 35l stack of chopped wood (which is likely half wood, half air), you are saying a piece of wood of a cubic foot in size - 30cm each side (27l of actual wood), can make an appreciable difference in temperature for 24 hours in a structure that size. I accept it will produce some heat - but not a significant amount. Watching programmes like "Living in the past" their fires were far larger than you suggest - these were people actually living the life.

In talking about stoves, chimneys, flues etc. I was not suggesting that the OP buy one, I was disputing the assertion that chimneys and flues waste heat to the atmosphere - they need not do so and indeed proper ones do not do - they act as thermal stores, trap heat where it is needed etc. I suggest that a fire where most smoke (and therefore heat) is "up in the cone" is far less efficient

Either way, if the OP wants to gamble on not having enough seasoned wood to produce heat and to cook on - thats entirely his call. Personally, I find that a sufficiency of warmth and cooking facilities is necessary for health and wellbeing. Almost everyone I know who heats with wood on a permanent basis, underestimated to begin with what is needed, I was hoping that someinput from those who have done it year round and have measured how much is needed might be helpful.

Edit to add

You may note the figures Llywd is quoting

10 cords is 10 stacks 8' by 4' by 4' - thats over 30 cubic metres a year. Makes the 10 cubic metres I suggest look tame (but climate must be accounted for).

 

[THOaken]

Just ironing out the last few problems with the forum, everyone.

There's plenty of forum sections and a few neat features. Lloyd, your article has been archived on our "Write an article for Oakenwise.com" section. You'll see it all soon.

 

[Llwyd]

If roundhouse fires were too big you would bring the place down about your ears in flames so yeah they were reasonably small. Also they would do much the same as we did for several generations and cut dead standing trees in the winter to supplement what was on hand.

Same idea as the long houses and wigwams we had over here you do not stoke up the stove and get 8 hours sleep. Basically someone is on fire watch or you sleep in 40 minute intervals and have a less productive day. I doubt Mr. Thoken wants to sleep with a bunch of dogs and pigs either. You may get away with 8 cords here in Canada but if you had an extra long 7 month friggin winter like we had this year it would not be fun.

Firewood aside; no one seems to mention the psychology of a project like this. I have seen more people fall apart and more group drama in the wilderness than you can shake a stick at. People problems are the main reason to doubt a successful outcome.

 

[boatman]

The larger fires in Living in the past were mostly for the light they gave. Note the garments shed with the larger fire.

 

[boatman]

This topic had made me nostalgic Toddy, that was a lovely post.
I especially like your point that most life was probably lived outside.

Something I think difficult for people to grasp is that there would probably not be a constant consumption cups of tea or coffee equivalents. No doubt a hot bowl of stew would be very welcome but I believe that the calory heating would be from food consumed rather than hot liquids. TV programme yesterday of Siberian dwellers stoking up on reindeer meat that made them feel warmer.

 

[THOaken]

You experienced folk should save your breath. Let's take this discussion over the Oakenwise.com forum.

http://www.oakenwise.com/forum/

 

[Llwyd]

This topic had made me nostalgic Toddy, that was a lovely post.
I especially like your point that most life was probably lived outside.

It still is in a lot of places. This time last year I was on the side of a mountain in British Columbia on an oil well where you would put in a 16 hour day in cold and snow then get back to camp, eat, and pass out with the joy of doing it again the next day. We did get 6 days off a month though.

 

[Toddy]

The smoke rises; it is gently diffused out through the thatch and from under the eaves. Unlike in an igloo the lungs don't end up full of black smoke....well, to be a bit basic....blowing my nose having spent at least eight hours working inside the house all day did not show any black on a white hankie

The roundhouse does not reach the magic 20 or 21degC; it's not intended to. It's simply shelter and a warm, calm, area out of the vagaries of the weather. The fire is a gentle warmth, it's cooking, it's light 'enough'....as the song says of the peat fire flames, "light for lit, for love, for laughter", not to read by, or do close work by, it's a social warmth.

The smoke is actually a good thing. The build up of soot on the upper timbers and thatch stops moulds and kills insects; it protects, it preserves. It's only the past few generations that have considered smoke a bad thing, and those are generations who lived 'enclosed' lives.

Chimney technology suits modern houses (relative modernity that is); it does not suit a round house. It is a waste of heat and protection and if the fuel is chosen with appropriate care then the smoke has other uses too. It used to be considered medicinal to burn certain plant; as indeed real tobacco, not the horrendously adulterated stuff sold nowadays to the addicted was originally used for. Sweet grass, mugwort, etc., are known even yet as 'hearth herbs'

Living in a roundhouse is an entire mind shift and life style adjustment. It is totally different from living in a cabin too.
There are no draughts, just gently baffled air. It's a micro climate for a people who lived outdoors most of the time. No condensation, no black mould....occasional fungi growing from timbers though
It's amazing how fast we adapt and find comfort within one though

Mary

 

[Toddy]

You experienced folk should save your breath. Let's take this discussion over the Oakenwise.com forum.

http://www.oakenwise.com/forum/

Thoaken, it is bad form to constantly promote another forum while discussing a topic here.

Please go and read the rules on self promotion.

You have been given a lot of leeway, but you are pushing too hard.

Toddy

 

[Llwyd]

Where does this igloo smoke come from again

 

[Toddy]

They burn fat. That creates light, cooking heat and warmth.
Inuit mummies, and we have more than one set, all have blackened lungs.

Toddy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjjxUE6XSdQ

 

[THOaken]

Thoaken, it is bad form to constantly promote another forum while discussing a topic here.

Please go and read the rules on self promotion.

You have been given a lot of leeway, but you are pushing too hard.

Toddy

Hm, yes. It's bad form, indeed. I never thought about it that way. I'm all for rules and regulations, so please take my sincere apology, Toddy.

 

[Llwyd]

I guess we use different snow.

I am not sure what sort of igloos you have in Scotland but ours all have an opening at the top like a chimney which is why there is no smoke in them and why they do not melt.

 

[Toddy]

You've lost me Llwyd.

Inuit make igloos, lodges, skin tents, etc., with the materials they had to hand....and they don't build big fuel heavy fires.

Toddy

 

[Llwyd]

You are right.