Potential ban to wild camping on Dartmoor.

Broch

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There's nothing new here; the one area we have never been able to wild camp without some type of bailiff showing up with a shotgun is the Arans. At one time you couldn't even walk through there without being threatened. I didn't see any mass representation trying to claim my rights there :)
 

slowworm

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May 8, 2008
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I would still like to see an unbiased report on the story. Has anyone ever camped on the land in question, is there a problem with fires, rubbish etc or is Dartmoor blessed with that rare beast of someone who actually looks after the countryside?
 

nigelp

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I would still like to see an unbiased report on the story. Has anyone ever camped on the land in question, is there a problem with fires, rubbish etc or is Dartmoor blessed with that rare beast of someone who actually looks after the countryside?
Yes. Frequently over the years and across Dartmoor for around 25 plus years.
Genuine wild campers leave little, or no trace. The rangers and bylaws deal with the party campers who tend to camp close to the roads.
 
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Woody girl

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I was a volunteer Ranger on dartmoor at weekends in the 1980s.
There has always been a problem with litter, and even poaching, which I have witnessed happening ..even someone killing and butchering a sheep on the Moor, but that's another story.
The fact is, there will always be those that do not respect the environment, even those who like climbing mountains . Banana skins and beer cans found halfway up Scottish mountains etc.
So it's nothing new.
It was lockdown and the ordinary people who were probably more like festival goers who abandon their stuff ,or those who just went out to get drunk and party where there were no nosy neighbours to dob them in.
Times have settled somewhat now, and it's more likely that things will just go back to how they always were, though it must have been a shock for those landowners that believed buying a bit of wilderness made it their own private back garden, and want to treat it as such.
Scotland has the right idea IMHO. With gov funding to keep them managed properly with enough staff and facilities to do so.
Not that there should be a free for all. Rules are still needed and should be obeyed, and there should be penalties for not doing so.
Incidently, it's taken him 10yrs to decide to take this to court, and money talks.
 
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Nice65

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Apr 16, 2009
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It’s truly unjust that people can own our land, rivers, lakes and night skies.

Just for info like, if anyone did want to make numerous enquiries about permission to camp, including a statement to say unless replied to, you’ll assume you can.

Alexander and Diana Darwall,

Blachford Farm, Cornwood, nr Ivyridge, Devon, PL21 9QX
 

Woody girl

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I am curious, how far back do we have to go to decide that the 'land is ours'? The Norman conquest, the Vikings, the Saxons, the Romans, the Beaker people? ..... Why is it ours?

Does one only have land if we buy it?
Untill the enclosure act, which took away land from the common man(and woman) there was freedom to roam and sleep anywhere.
So you can date it any time before that.
 

Fadcode

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I think what is most interesting is they won this case, by persuading the Judge that camping was not a recreation, and this is what needs to be looked at, camping no doubt can be seen as a hobby, and therefore as you do a hobby in your rest periods from manual labour, surely it can be seen as recreational, a restful period in your time, such as fishing, bird watching, sky watching etc. This at a time when Doctors are advising people to get out into the country more, to ease mental problems, England is becoming a second, or third class country, we should have the right to roam, the same as the Scots we should not be discriminated against because of our nationality. Labour have promised to give us the same rights to roam as the Scots if elected.(other Political parties are available, with similar worthless promises, if needed)

One of the biggest problems we face in my opinion, with the judiciary, is most matters do not effect them, but possibly going against one of their chamber members does. It would be nice to think that Judges are impartial, but on many of their judgements it's hard to believe they are, one good example is when a High Court Judge ruled that veganism is a religion, and found a firm guilty of discrimination on those grounds.

In this case money matters, (doesn't it always)they have submitted plans to turn old barns etc into accommodation which help them with their shoots and hunting activities, and they don't want plebs and low lifes spoiling it, so now they can demand you leave the property, this is probably to stop the hunt saboteurs from causing them problems. It's similar to people moving into villages, then complaining about traffic, or the fact the church bells ring on a Sunday etc
 

Wander

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Jan 6, 2017
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Untill the enclosure act, which took away land from the common man(and woman) there was freedom to roam and sleep anywhere.
So you can date it any time before that.

Not quite true.
Before that, in medieval Europe, under feudal laws all land was owned by the crown and was offered as a gift. The lord of the manor would not only then own the land, but the rivers, the fish, the animals, and the people on it! The serfs had no right to roam or leave the land - they were legally compelled to stay and work where they were born. Freemen (the yeomanry) were different, but they were very few and even then they probably rented the land they worked, the mill they used, etc from the lord of the manor. Despite what we think, a serf had more legal recourse than a freeman - a serf could appeal to the shire court if they felt the lord of the manor was not upholding his side of the contract between them. A freeman could not.
That's not a defence of feudalism, mind you - it was a system that was open to tremendous abuse, but it's wrong to say that pre-Enclosures the people had a right to roam. They didn't.

Anyway.

As someone who owns a small bit of land (just over 8 acres) I'm in a constant turmoil over this question of land access. Technically, I own it - I paid the money, I possess the title deeds.
But I do struggle to think of that land as 'mine'.
Ideally, I think anyone is welcome to enjoy it. I really do.
I am developing it as a wildflower meadow. I've had it a couple of years now, and it's proven a more difficult and longer task than I thought (naively, I thought I could just sow wildflower and seed and...well, like I say, naively).
There is no right of way across my land. Along one side is a deer park, along another a cow field (there's a gate between that field and mine, and I let the farmer graze his cattle in my field as well), along another there's an apple orchard, and a lane along the bottom.
There's a public footpath that runs down through the orchard, and then alongside the border between my field and the cattle field. It does not cross nor enter my land.
Though I have on many occasions seen dog walkers and hikers cross my field.
I turn a blind eye.
Why not? After all, I used to take that route as well - that's how I came to see that piece of land was up for sale!
I shouldn't though.
And here's why, and here's what's missing from many people's equations about their rights.
Because I need to insure my land in case someone (illegally) crosses it and hurts themselves.
Yup.
If one of those dog walkers were to take a tumble and get injured, I am liable!
That sticks in my craw a bit, and is why I would never take an open arms policy about people being on my land.

So maybe we should think about that in our demands to have the right to roam. Instead of focussing on our rights, what about our responsibilities? That often gets missed.
When campaigning for your right to go wherever you wish, could you also build in to your campaign a demand to abolish landowner's insurance, and take responsibility for your own misadventures?
Because, right now, I am liable.
And the litter one is a very good one indeed. I'm lucky, I've not had a litter issue. But if I was to have a laissez faire attitude to access and people did start to leave lots of obnoxious waste, then who's responsible (that horrible word again) for that? Right now, it's me. But, dammit, even if a group of well meaning volunteers were to act as wardens and clear up, why the bloody hell should they!? I'd sooner see those responsible people enjoying my land than curating it.
And so, because of a lack of responsibility (but never a lack of 'rights') I do not open my land to people. I'll turn a blind eye to the one or two walkers, so long as they continue to act responsible.
It's a real shame, because I am uncomfortable with the idea that I 'own' the land. Yes, legally, I do. But I refuse to see how anyone can own it in a meaningful way and I refuse to accept that this arbitrary piece of mud, that has been there since the dawn of time, can be in anyway 'owned' by someone's brief and transitory time on it.
But until you take responsibility for your own actions, rather than me having to do it for you, then you can sod off. On forums like this, there's not a single person I wouldn't be happy to allow to spend a night camping - we're the responsible ones, though we are woefully few.
When campaigning for your rights, don't forget to campaign about your responsibilities and how you are going to make a difference to the irresponsible ones. Best of luck with that because you are damn well going to need it.
 
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slowworm

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This is why I asked for a balanced report on the ban. Someone said it's taken them 10 years to taken action, perhaps they've just got fed up with litter or something happened.

As a land owner myself I've often thought the first step with opening up land would be for central government to insure any land owner for liability, litter, flytipping, fire, theft etc. Having said that its our council that I have the biggest problems with as they view any land that's not fenced in as fair game to fly top on.

My main gripe at the moment is dog mess. I'm a dog owner and always clear up after my dog even if she's in a middle of a remote wood. However it seems everyone else these days just views the countryside as a dog toilet which not only is unpleasant but I do wonder if some of the more recent dog diseases are spreading because of this.
 

Broch

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Does one only have land if we buy it?
Untill the enclosure act, which took away land from the common man(and woman) there was freedom to roam and sleep anywhere.
So you can date it any time before that.

No, one only 'has' land if we pay for it - either in battle, or work and effort, or, yes, even money. It has been thus since we started to 'work the land' to our benefit. There was no land ownership until we started farming. Once someone, or more likely their tribe, had put in the effort to clear the land and cultivate it, they defended it. Why should they let another family/tribe/group come on that land and do what they want without putting in the effort.

Common man has never had carte blanche rights to access or do what they like on land, well, not since the early Neolithic. No, I do not accept a pre-enclosures time as being the start. My ancestors were turfed off their land by overseas invaders a very long time ago, maybe we should reinstate their rights :)

Land costs money to manage. It should not be the general public that pay to manage it for the minority - because, yes, whether we like it or not, the number of people that want access to walk or wild camp is a very small minority of the population. Nobody else should be paying for our leisure activity.
 
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Ystranc

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Does one only have land if we buy it?
Untill the enclosure act, which took away land from the common man(and woman) there was freedom to roam and sleep anywhere.
So you can date it any time before that.
That is not in fact true, the common man needed permission of a justice or magistrate (landowner/employer) to travel, sleeping outdoors was illegal in England and it was illegal to withhold labour otherwise you could be imprisoned for vagrancy and do hard labour. People always look at the past with rose tinted spectacles.
 
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gibson 175

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Thank you for this article. Here are some of the points it makes:
  1. It makes a distinction between responsible wild campers and 'daytippers'.
  2. The park authority has found no evidence that responsible wild camping has any lasting impact on the environment.
  3. Park wardens have dealt with 'fly campers' by closing certain areas off.
  4. Dartmoor National Park has fought the ban in the High Court (presumably they have now lost)
  5. The ban would threaten Duke of Edinburgh and other outdoor groups that benefit young people.
  6. The landowner who took this to court is a hedge fund manager, the moorland estate makes money by holiday rentals, pheasant shoots and deer stalking.
  7. Shrubsole said landowners caused more damage to Dartmoor than responsible wild campers.
  8. A petition against a landowners decision to end an agreement allowing people to park near the New Waste area of Dartmoor was signed by more than 500 people
  9. Devon and Somerset Fire Service recorded 1 fire in 12 months caused by a camping stove
  10. Fire service data suggests 6 fires were caused by controlled fires started by landowners to burn vegetation – that got out of control in the same period.
  11. Only a small number of fires on Dartmoor are caused by stoves and BBQs, which are more likely to be used by day trippers than wild campers.
  12. Other landowners will be encouraged to do the same if this ban is succesful.
 

Woody girl

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That is not in fact true, the common man needed permission of a justice or magistrate (landowner/employer) to travel, sleeping outdoors was illegal in England and it was illegal to withhold labour otherwise you could be imprisoned for vagrancy and do hard labour. People always look at the past with rose tinted spectacles.

When was it illegal to sleep outdoors?
Many pilgrims, itinerant traders and travellers (not the modern sort) slept outdoors for as long as they existed.

When did it become legal to sleep outdoors?

If you are going to rubbish what I say, perhaps you could give real evidence, with the dates of when these laws you claim were enacted.

I have lived and worked and volenteered on dartmoor, and presently live on exmoor, and have many farming friends on the moor know several rangers, and occasionally volunteer on projects have done so for 40 years.
I think that although many landowners have similar problems, with uneducated townies, "enjoying a bit of recreation" unless you live or work on the the moor, it's a different style of management to a normal farm elsewhere. For a start, land is not generally fenced off from the public. So you do get people roaming over the land. Some respect it, some don't. But legislation against those who do respect the land is fundamental wrong, whatever else.
Many landowners pollute their own land and rivers with all sorts of nasties like slurry and pesticides chemicals, killing wildlife. That is more of a problem than a few wildcampers, but they don't get banned from being on the land.
The land he wishes to ban wildcampers on is very wild and boggy with little cover. Not suitable for pheasant shooting anyway. There is a few shoots around here, I can hear the guns almost daily in the season and my neighbour works on the shoots as long as I've known him.
So I'm not totaly ignorant of what is needed for a shoot.
He wants to shoot reared pheasant on open boggy moors with a right of access? Ha ha!
Next thing we know he will be planting cover, and fencing it off for public safety. All access denied, the valuable character of the land changed(improved, well done) and another little bit of our heritage taken away from us.
Money talks. The plebs can go elsewhere, there's plenty left...untill there isn't. Slow encroachment.
It's wrong. Plain and simple.
 
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Ystranc

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The vagrancy act of 1824 was only a formalisation of statutes that had been enacted since feudal times. These laws and statutes prevented travelling within England without written permission of your lord and master or a magistrate/justice, they prevented a person leaving an employer and moving to new employment without permission. For a brief period in English law it was also illegal for the common man to withhold labour so they could be forced to work for a pittance. The punishments were things like flogging, imprisonment with hard labour or fines that you had to work to pay off. This all pre dates 1824 and the introduction of workhouse.
This is one of the reasons that I’m so angry about our current governments plans to make it illegal to withhold labour, it is a huge retrogressive step in labour relations.
If you do a little research to find out when the last workhouse closed you will be shocked. Some of them continued (under another name) into the 1960’s

Anyway, end of rant and back on topic. Alexander Darwall wishes to prevent wild camping on his land which is part of the DMNP. Even though he knew there was an existing ethos of wild camping before he bought the land he has exerted his rights in court meaning that while you can still roam across his land you can no longer camp there without permission . As I understand it, it isn’t the whole of the DMNP that has banned wild camping but there is an ongoing consultation with other landowners.
 
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