Ponderings on sharing knowledge and skills

[Tony]

I saw this (below) on FB a few minutes ago: (warning, a bit of a waffle!)

There was a farmer who grew excellent quality corn. Every year he won the award for the best grown corn. One year a newspaper reporter interviewed him and learned something interesting about how he grew it. The reporter discovered that the farmer shared his seed corn with his neighbors. “How can you afford to share your best seed corn with your neighbors when they are entering corn in competition with yours each year?” the reporter asked.
“Why sir,” said the farmer, “Didn’t you know? The wind picks up pollen from the ripening corn and swirls it from field to field. If my neighbors grow inferior corn, cross-pollination will steadily degrade the quality of my corn. If I am to grow good corn, I must help my neighbors grow good corn.”
So is with our lives... Those who want to live meaningfully and well must help enrich the lives of others, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all...

It got me thinking about how important it is to share skills and knowledge, and yet, how hard it is for people to do so because of numerous reasons from "I've worked hard for it so why give it away" through to "I don't have the skills to share my knowledge". There's real issue with a lot of people (companies and individuals) that 'know' bushcraft and outdoor skills, being overly proud of their status and protective of their knowledge, when generally they're regurgitating info that they've learned from other people, books, courses etc. Knowledge and skills that used to be handed down freely to all who wanted to know them, that way the knowledge and skills grew and developed, changed to suit the environment and generally benefited a lot more people.

I know a lot of people in the bushcraft industry, in the early years I was a bit shocked at how tribal, protective, paranoid many of them were , then I met others that would freely share knowledge etc, people that wanted others to feel the enrichment to their lives that an interest in the outdoors can bring to us. Mors K was a prime example of this, he loved sharing his knowledge, sure sometimes you paid to be taught by him but that was a necessity, his actual love was to learn and share with whomever he could. He loved learning new things from others, that he could then pass on to yet more people. He pushed the boundaries on 'survival' and skills, used modern materials etc if they served a purpose.
I remember a conversation I had with him where he lamented the upturn of all the people and companies that were teaching the same sets of skills, just for the money and status, regurgitating old skills without pushing for new knowledge, skills, learning, experimenting etc.

While reading about the guy and his corn above it reminded me how important it is that we share our knowledge, skills, ideas etc. How important it is that we encourage others to experiment, fail, try again etc. Because we all benefit, the quality of our skills and knowledge increase as those around us also increases, we become a community of more capable and able people.

I'm grateful to those that share their knowledge, that patiently help others grow and develop and so help us all be better.
There's a lot of people on Bushcraft UK and at the BushMoots that do just that, and it's and amazing thing. Thanks to you all.

 

[Broch]

Whereas I agree with your views in principal, teaching Bushcraft skills is not alone in this. There are people who give computing advice and services away for free, people that fix other peoples' cars for free, people that give away spare veg from their garden for free ... the list goes on forever.

But, there are people who have studied and worked hard to build the skills that allow them to sell their knowledge as their source of income. Is it fair that others, with less formal training and maybe not fully trained or covered by insurance etc., should undercut them or even do their work for free?

I do bemoan the number of 'copy cat' buschraft businesses out there but, at the same time, I have a lot of respect for a handful of very professional tutors (though, you may be surprised at who is not on that list). Are they over-priced? I don't see many bushcraft tutors running around in new Range Rovers!

 

[TLM]

I don't see many bushcraft tutors running around in new Range Rovers!

While apparently true, the proper vehicle in this present time would be a Challenger 2.

 

[Van-Wild]

.

But, there are people who have studied and worked hard to build the skills that allow them to sell their knowledge as their source of income. Is it fair that others, with less formal training and maybe not fully trained or covered by insurance etc., should undercut them or even do their work for free?

'But, there are people who have studied and worked hard to build the skills that allow them to sell their knowledge as their source of income' - And well done to these people. They've worked hard to gain knowledge and skills that they can monetise. Simple economics!

'Is it fair that others, with less formal training and maybe not fully trained or covered by insurance etc., should undercut them or even do their work for free?'- Nothing to do with being fair or having insurance. It's about people being generous with their time, knowledge and skills. I don't think that people who freely share their knowledge or skills are intentionally undercutting genuine business owners.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

 

[Toddy]

I hate that the skills that I grew up with, that were once so commonplace, and were an expected part of everyone's knowledge, are so commercialised that at times we need insurance, and public liability cover, to even discuss them with others. That we live in such a litigateous, blame society that we have to constantly add caveats to our talks.
That I can no longer openly use many tools, that I can no longer gather without some numpty erroneously claiming, "That's illegal!!", "That's poisonous", "You shouldn't be showing the kids that ! "..........

I see, and know those who work in the 'bushcraft industry', and while they all have skills, very few are truly skilled beyond a kind of schooled learning.
Thing is though, not all those who are skilful are good teachers.
If folks are paying for something they deserve good, truly experienced, teachers, well, I think so. Those teachers really do deserve a decent living from it.
Should that mean that the rest should just not open their mouths though ? Well, no.

On the whole, I am very much with Tony on this. Hoarding knowledge and not inspiring others unless they grease your palm with silver, restricts us all.
Knowing that there are exceptionally good teachers out there though, who do run good courses, do help folks learn, build confidence and skill sets, are worth spending that silver upon, doesn't change that opinion.


M

 

[British Red]

I'm grateful to those that share their knowledge, that patiently help others grow and develop and so help us all be better.

Absolutely spot on, I've been so lucky in this life. I remember a wonderful day with John & Val Lord in their cottage - such warm, natural tutors, but I've learned so much from others too - often just bimbling in the woods or sat in someone's workshop - and often online too when people have identified things, explained techniques and even sent gifts of tools, equipment, materials and even plants!

I count myself very fortunate to associate with such a courteous and generous bunch.

 

[Hammock_man]

For many years I worked as a Technical Instructor in electronics, computing and networking so I am very familiar with the concept charging for ones skills and time. On the other side of the coin ( yeah its a pun) one has to attend but a single Moot to see the volume and quality of knowledge freely given. Some folk do run courses for free, other cover the cost of the raw materials consumed, i.e. leather, cordage. Meanwhile there are a few courses run over a couple days for which there is a real "ticket" price. With out meaning to upset anyone I do not think the standard of instruction / value of knowledge is higher than many of the free talks but the shear time spent delivering content makes a charge totally acceptable.
Some years ago Gary and I did a session at the moot taking a flint and steel via char cloth to a lit flaming Sulphur match. I thought it was a neat bundle of mini skills and tricks to achieve a worthwhile result. We charged the same price as what we paid for a whole mass of knowledge we had been given, free. There is a a load of people, in Bushcraft, that do the same.

 

[demographic]

I'm an open book me.
Everyones free to find out the very little I know.

 

[oldtimer]

I spent the major part of my working life in Education getting paid to teach Primary School children, University students, Post-Graduates, and serving teachers and headteachers. I have worked on research projects with artists, actors, writers, musicians and dancers. I hope I have helped all those I came across to acquire new knowledge and to develop their skills.

What I am sure about is that all the people I came across taught me plenty too. Sometimes this was a new skill, sometimes a reminder of something I had known but had forgotten. Many times a question from a student has made me question and re-examine my own belief or practice leading me to either change or re-affirm it.

I have never attended any "bushcraft" course but began to acquire skills at an early age from my parents and their friends, teachers, scout masters, cadet officers and friends and acquaintances. This early experience lead to a lifetime of reading, practice and trial and error learning at home and abroad. At the age of 80, I continue to learn a lot from this forum and am grateful to both those of you who share thei knowledge and also to those newcomers who seek knowledge and stimulate my own interest as they do so.

I have read much on what we now call bushcraft over the years but YouTube and Kindle are fairly new learning resources for me. I notice that they share a common problem: although there is a lot of valuable knowledge to be found there, so too is a great deal of rubbish. Today with Kindle and YouTube anyone can publish nonsense often without not really realising how weak their grasp of the subject is. It worries me that the newcomer is not in a position to tell the difference and that this is potentially dangerous. Like most of us, I had to pass exams, practical tests and peer evaluation to qualify to practise in my profession. Perhaps there is a case for those who set themselves up as "experts" in Bushcraft to qualify as such though peer approval, especially when they receive payment.

As to payment: I consider the annual membership I pay to BushcraftUK is excellent value for money!

 

[swyn]

Whereas I agree with your views in principal, teaching Bushcraft skills is not alone in this. There are people who give computing advice and services away for free, people that fix other peoples' cars for free, people that give away spare veg from their garden for free ... the list goes on forever.

But, there are people who have studied and worked hard to build the skills that allow them to sell their knowledge as their source of income. Is it fair that others, with less formal training and maybe not fully trained or covered by insurance etc., should undercut them or even do their work for free?

I do bemoan the number of 'copy cat' buschraft businesses out there but, at the same time, I have a lot of respect for a handful of very professional tutors (though, you may be surprised at who is not on that list). Are they over-priced? I don't see many bushcraft tutors running around in new Range Rovers!

Yes, my son after seven years studying and £75.000 in debt still has the ‘hey-ho’ attitude that he can create an environment to aid the world and in particular this country live comfortably in modern buildings. Long may this last!
S

 

[Deleted member 56522]

I know a lot of people in the bushcraft industry, in the early years I was a bit shocked at how tribal, protective, paranoid many of them were

I've been doing some in depth research and looking at many survival programs and I've also tried to contact a few high profile "experts" and, I have to say, that they have been universally unhelpful. Not one even bothered to reply to a genuine inquiry.

The reason became clear as I looked at their websites: they all seem to have a business model of producing "survival" shows (some of very dubious credibility), which they then use to launch their personal "survival" businesses. So, they give off this persona of being "away from the modern world" ... but the reality is that they earn good money IN the modern world (selling shows about escaping it).

The other thing, is having looked into several of these programs and tried to understand exactly the issues of survival, I've become rather dubious about the authenticity of many. For example one "expert" on one show, recommended building a toboggan out of scrap material (they just happened to find) to sledge down in a totally reckless way down a supposedly unknown slope ... with unknown cliffs, which was just insane. Of course it all happened the other way around: they decided on that show they would build a sledge, they then decided what story they would use to enable them to "find" the necessary scrap ... and they built the whole show around it. Indeed, the supposed "journey" was possibly filmed in numerous unrelated locations, even possibly different countries at completely different times.

As for "being in the wild" ... they probably drove from their hotel to within a short distance of the filming spot by 4x4 ...

 

[Toddy]

@Sekwo

We could recommend really good tutors and their schools ?
Really nearby for you too

 

[Tengu]

Try some crafts folk. not helpful.

and some of the older generations of archaeologists are just as bad.

 

[Toddy]

Courses - Backwoods Survival School

Try some crafts folk. not helpful.

and some of the older generations of archaeologists are just as bad.

You have to demonstrate competency, a work ethic, and something of your work has to catch their attention. It's not going to be handed to you on a plate.
Often the issue is that while many have great ideas, few put practical application and diligent hard work into fulfilling them, too many seem to prefer to skim knowledge and try to gain credit.
For every one who succeeds though, there are literally a thousand others who just got the bit of paper and then went off and found something else to do. Not a lot of money in most of archaeology and folks have every right to have reasonable expectations of earning a decent living. Few do it in the 'industry'.

 

[TLM]

few put practical application and diligent hard work into fulfilling them, too many seem to prefer to skim knowledge and try to gain credit.

A few years ago I found a doctorate thesis on archaeology where the lady had walked apparently hundreds of clicks on Crete to map ancient Minoan roads and paths and and I guess found a lot of things on the side. She mapped the paths with tracking GPS and then put an overlay on GMAPS. I thought that was really impressive and it also brought out the extensive "road" network people then had. What made me really wonder how few positive comments I saw on her work, it might be that I did not find the right media, might also be that a lot of people were envious that they had not come up with the idea.

 

[Toddy]

Mostly the comments on a thesis are very limited because it is just the thesis and it's attached comments from the thesis committee, and anything else that was done later with the information would never be attached to that.

There's always more.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

@Sekwo

We could recommend really good tutors and their schools ?
Really nearby for you too

I wanted to talk about some of their experiences and in particular some of the things that clearly had occurred off camera. As a simple to explain example, on one program some woven bags suddenly appear without explanation. Given the context, they could have been found as discards, or could have been produced .... and if produced was it easy to do (unfortunately palm leaves don't grow in central Scotland ... or at least, those that do are guarded).

As another example, I cannot remember anyone on Naked and Afraid creating a grass mattress or even covering themselves with dried grass to keep warm. It would be nice to know if they simply didn't think of it, or whether there is a reason it doesn't work that isn't obvious to me.

 

[nigelp]

I wanted to talk about some of their experiences and in particular some of the things that clearly had occurred off camera. As a simple to explain example, on one program some woven bags suddenly appear without explanation. Given the context, they could have been found as discards, or could have been produced .... and if produced was it easy to do (unfortunately palm leaves don't grow in central Scotland ... or at least, those that do are guarded).

As another example, I cannot remember anyone on Naked and Afraid creating a grass mattress or even covering themselves with dried grass to keep warm. It would be nice to know if they simply didn't think of it, or whether there is a reason it doesn't work that isn't obvious to me.

I think you are being somewhat optimistic to expect the production companies to answer those questions. Most of those shows are entertainment themed around ‘survival and primitive skills’ with a heavy dose of off camera scripting and coordination. Fun to watch but not to be taken seriously!

 

[Toddy]

I wanted to talk about some of their experiences and in particular some of the things that clearly had occurred off camera. As a simple to explain example, on one program some woven bags suddenly appear without explanation. Given the context, they could have been found as discards, or could have been produced .... and if produced was it easy to do (unfortunately palm leaves don't grow in central Scotland ... or at least, those that do are guarded).

As another example, I cannot remember anyone on Naked and Afraid creating a grass mattress or even covering themselves with dried grass to keep warm. It would be nice to know if they simply didn't think of it, or whether there is a reason it doesn't work that isn't obvious to me.

I don't watch tv, so can't comment on that.
That said though, we have a really large number of useful plants for that kind of weaving here.

Do you mean a palliasse ? A tightly woven fabric stuffed with straw, rushes, leaves (not so usual, they break down too quickly, but useful in a 'bushcraft' situation if they're available in quantity) and used just like a mattress. The same kind of sack stuffed with leaves makes a decent enough duvet for a cold night.

Heather stuffed box beds were commonplace here though pine branches do work, if somewhat stickily. Broom lacks a certain springiness to the underneath though.

M

 

[Deleted member 56522]

I don't watch tv, so can't comment on that.
That said though, we have a really large number of useful plants for that kind of weaving here.

Do you mean a palliasse ? A tightly woven fabric stuffed with straw, rushes, leaves (not so usual, they break down too quickly, but useful in a 'bushcraft' situation if they're available in quantity) and used just like a mattress. The same kind of sack stuffed with leaves makes a decent enough duvet for a cold night.

Heather stuffed box beds were commonplace here though pine branches do work, if somewhat stickily. Broom lacks a certain springiness to the underneath though.

M

I've allowed my hedge to grow for two years ... if that doesn't work, I will try some local blackberries.

I literally meant a "bed" of vegetation. In other words: a layer of vegetation but under and over the person as would be found in an animal layer. Ed Stafford did exactly that on his challenge ... but I've never seen that on Naked and Afraid.

Naked and Afraid is a TV program where two "survival experts", a man and a woman are sent to some place which is so awful and lacking food that no one lives there, and then told to take their clothes off and survive, usually with nothing but a machete and a cooking pot.

The general plot of Naked and Afraid is this: arriving with many hours to prepare, they fail to make an adequate shelter, they fail to make a fire, they get really cold and wet, they fail to find any food, they starve, get bitten by insects, (encouraged by producer and lack of food, sleep and biting insects) the contestants end up hating each other & fall out, but miraculously they make up and a few days before extraction, an animal/bird miraculously wonders into their traps (which for some strange reason were devoid of creatures throughout the show) & they have a feast and then they swim through crocodile infested water to escape.

This needs to be compared to "last man out" ... where two survivalists are in a race, and after a day on the move, with the sun just setting, they (on their own), make a shelter, catch food and cook it and then settle down comfortably.

OK, I might be slightly exaggerating, but for example on 10,000BC, the contestants admitted that for the last month they lived off the film crew lunches after they discovered where they hid their food. And on one Naked and Afraid contestant's blog, they mentioned that the locals had come to the site just before the filming and taken all the coconuts.