Pi££ Poor Preperation

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Nomad64

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Nov 21, 2015
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And an update just now ….

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800

However, I do believe that a lot of sport does carry insurance or am I wrong?
IMHO a perfect ending - a splash of publicity which will hopefully make others think twice about doing something similar, genuine contrition and humility from the miscreants and obvious gratitude towards their rescuers and recognition of a job well done by the Lochaber MRT.

There is a world of difference in playing organised sport such as football, rugby, cricket or boxing under the auspices of a national sports association in facilities owned by a club, local authority where insurance is both feasible and appropriate and someone heading to the hills on a weekend either on their own or with a few mates.

IIRC BMC membership used to come with some kind of insurance but I suspect that was more to do with covering potential liability to climbing partners or third parties rather than to cover the cost of a ride to hospital in a helicopter.

As the Lochaber MRT statement said, compulsory insurance is unworkable and they do not support the idea of charging people for being rescued and if they are happy with the way things work at present, I think that should be the end of it.

Would those advocating compulsory insurance (and presumably training and licensing) for those planning a bimble in the hills also be happy for the same arrangements apply to buying an axe, knife and tarp and going to play in the woods?

It might seem unfair that ill-equipped and inexperienced numpties get a free ride in a helicopter but then if we all adhered to the guidance on alcohol intake, smoking, food and exercise, the burden on the NHS would be significantly reduced. There are a couple of sayings involving throwing stones, sin and glasshouses that spring to mind. :)
 

Corso

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Aug 13, 2007
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And an update just now ….


However, I do believe that a lot of sport does carry insurance or am I wrong?
sports insurance covers Public Liability, personal accident, loss of earnings and theft, loss or damage to your sports equipment. Not the rescue.
 
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Corso

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Aug 13, 2007
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It might seem unfair that ill-equipped and inexperienced numpties get a free ride in a helicopter but then if we all adhered to the guidance on alcohol intake, smoking, food and exercise, the burden on the NHS would be significantly reduced. There are a couple of sayings involving throwing stones, sin and glasshouses that spring to mind. :)
Atleast the tax for these pays towards the NHS.

But I agree one of the biggest burdens to the NHS is the numpties who over do their alchol intake - they should be charged too.
 

Fadcode

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Feb 13, 2016
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Just to sum up, about people paying insurance, or having to pay when things go drastically wrong, lets for a minute just suppose these 4 idiots died on Ben Nevis, they would still be rescued, hospitalised, exactly how much would you charge a dead body?

How many on here actually have insurance when they go out for a walk. a wild camp, trip up a mountain, etc, etc, I know I don't.

They were idiots, but they were lucky, the Mountain Rescue lads, don't believe they should be charged, for the simple reason is that if they got to the top of the mountain to save someone, and that person didn't have the means to pay, would that mean they would have to leave them up there.
We are extremely lucky in this country, because we don't have to pay to be rescued, whether its at the top of a mountain, in the sea, after we have an accident in the car, or we fall down drunk after a night out, in many other countries, especially the US, we would be left there, no credit card...no aid.
I have seen people turned away from hospitals in the US because it was evident they couldn't pay, I once saw a man who had been run over by a car, dragged out of a hotel foyer in Instanbul, because he was bleeding on the carpet, it was only because we caused such a hullabaloo that the manager let him back in and called an ambulance,
These 4 idiots made a donation to the rescuers in appreciation of their efforts to save them, as I am sure they realise the peril they were in.
Retrospective Analysis, also known as being wise after the event, is good, but it is too late, lets be thankful we have emergency services to help us in our need, and lets remember to support them (cashwise) when we can. .
 
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Broch

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Jan 18, 2009
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I don't actually think anybody was realistically saying they should have been charged (I know I wasn't) but just feeding the fire of discussion :)
(I did say I was playing devil's advocate earlier).
 

Corso

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Aug 13, 2007
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Agree there should be discussion on this sort of thing




The way the NHS is going our 'Luck' will run out sooner rather than later if said services are abused

You'd be rather foolish to go abroard without travel insurance or an E1 11 card if in Europe

Just to sum up, about people paying insurance, or having to pay when things go drastically wrong, lets for a minute just suppose these 4 idiots died on Ben Nevis, they would still be rescued, hospitalised, exactly how much would you charge a dead body?
.
Interesting question and without bein too morbid it costs almost $100K on Everst

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/05/31/31696/the-cost-of-retrieving-bodies-from-everest
 

TLM

Settler
Nov 16, 2019
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Vantaa, Finland
You seem to have a system that works. (I know practically nothing about the various British rescue services) People in MRTs are probably not very unhappy. How about letting a working system stay that way (positive conservatism) and maybe give a small donation?

Just an outsider observing
 

Janne

Guest
Feb 10, 2016
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Grand Cayman, Norway, Sweden
For sure NHS will have to foot the bill. So does the Swedish and Norwegian 'NHS' when a Brit breaks his bones skiing.

It works both ways.
No doctor, dentist, hospital or ambulance service in Europe will refuse a patient. Professional Ethics.

Guys and girls, if you break a leg when skiing in Scandinavia, you will pay exactly the same as the Scandinavian guy with a broken leg in the waiting line behind you!

You need to carry the card though, it shows you are entitled in one of the European countries to receive the benefits ( Medical and Dental treatment) and not pretending to be a Brit, but are in fact from New Zealand ( and NOT entitled the medical benefits)

Those will receive the treatment, but will be billed.
Just like you will be billed if you receive any treatment in his/her country!
 
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petrochemicals

Full Member
Jul 30, 2012
3,488
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westmidlands
Agree there should be discussion on this sort of thing




The way the NHS is going our 'Luck' will run out sooner rather than later if said services are abused

You'd be rather foolish to go abroard without travel insurance or an E1 11 card if in Europe



Interesting question and without bein too morbid it costs almost $100K on Everst

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/05/31/31696/the-cost-of-retrieving-bodies-from-everest
The nhs paid a small forune for the expats living in foreign climes

https://fullfact.org/health/how-much-does-uk-recover-health-costs-eu/
 

Nomad64

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Nov 21, 2015
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I wear trainers.
Gore tex walking trainers.
Does that make me a bad person or just poor generalisations from the media?
Depends where you are wearing them, what you are doing in them, what time of year and weather conditions and most importantly whether you are drooling over the side-bar of shame on an online news website while you are wearing them. ;)
 

Laurentius

Native
Aug 13, 2009
1,830
142
Knowhere
Depends where you are wearing them, what you are doing in them, what time of year and weather conditions and most importantly whether you are drooling over the side-bar of shame on an online news website while you are wearing them. ;)
It is all context and circumstance really, some years ago when I was a lot fitter and mobile than I am now I was walking with a friend on the miners track on Snowdon in sandals. She remarked as to whether that was sensible and I said probably not, taking them off and walking on barefoot. True we were not going for the summit and it was summer.
 

Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,047
459
Lancashire
Used to know a barefoot person. He went everywhere without any footwear on. We were both at university in Leeds at the time in the days when students walked from bar to bar with pint glass part full to drink between pubs. As you'd expect not all glasses made it safely so Tuesday morning after student night glass was everywhere.

Personally I found the right trainer was better than winter boots in the lakes if you know your stuff and it suits the hill you're walking on. Even better than boots and crampons judging by the way I was always waiting for those traditionalists. Plus the added bonus of older walkers giving you disapproving looks. I was a wind up merchant so loved giving people stick when they butted into my choices.
 

TLM

Settler
Nov 16, 2019
524
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66
Vantaa, Finland
There is a difference between what one can do, what one should do, what one can get away with and the sensible thing. With a proper plan B one might walk the mountains with huaraches, after all the Tarahumaras do. I did try some Greek mountains with them and I did have to use plan B, but that was because of the knife sharp limestone, rough trainers were quite OK.
 
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Edtwozeronine

Member
Jan 18, 2020
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I wear trainers.
Gore tex walking trainers.
Does that make me a bad person or just poor generalisations from the media?
I very much doubt they had gortex trainers just a bunch of lads in their daily wear, I bought a pair of ankle boots from Clarks recently that happened to be gortex but I don't plan to go hill walking in them, they're planned to be my smart shoes for weddings and such.

I have been using my Wellington's to walk in the local woodland lately since that's the best option for the rain sodden ground.
 

Billy-o

Native
Apr 19, 2018
1,118
428
Canada
It never occurred to us to blame those we rescued but it did help us to feel good by being useful and that was our reward.
:)

I think this is an important point of view. Often, if you spend your fun time in potentially hairy circumstances, you'll see people being rescued. And, it always feels like one of those 'there but for the grace of God' moments. I'd prefer the world be full of people who go out into the sea and mountains and make mistakes rather than choose to cuddle up at home and scold all the 'idiots' who do get themselves out there. Having met a lot of rescue type folks, Oldtimer's view of things seems to be the prevalent one among them.
 
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Paul_B

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jul 14, 2008
4,047
459
Lancashire
Too right! Rescuers don't tend to judge instead they might educate. Having been rescued myself (unnecessarily) I've r experienced that only they didn't have anything to teach me that I hadn't taught myself the hard way.

So they didn't tell me off or tell me where I'd gone wrong. My mistake was heading up a gully on a sunny and warm day after a week of very cold weather. That meant stones and boulders had been released from soil or from rock faces. Any that got loose were funneled to where we were scrambling up. I got a boulder that put my hand between it and the hold at the top of a short climbing pitch, the crux too. I was taking my time as it didn't suit me. If I'd just gone for it the boulder wouldn't have got me.

Annoying thing was that the ex MRT honorary lifetime member with over 15 years of post training callouts. He had held back because he was aware of the hazard that befell me and sent another guy into a somersault, with twist and pike. Seriously it knocked him off his feet, into the air such that he flipped over and around to land heavily on his feet with back to the crag he had been facing. Totally weird how it happened.

We self rescued but someone up the hill had called them out so they escorted us down the crag via ledges. Worst thing was a helicopter was called out to winch us out but a climber on langdale pikes took priority so it turned to them before reaching us. Totally glad about that.

There but the grace of... is something anyone getting out into adventurous situations has felt. Challenging ourselves gives so much to who we are and can be imho that I hope I'll never stop doing it. I don't think any rescue team who's services I might end up needing will want me to stop doing those adventures. To keep safe is their only request.