Pi££ Poor Preperation
- Thread starter Alan De Enfield
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My first job when I left school was in insurance. Insurance used to be equitable, now it's profit driven.
If you can't go up the hills without insurance then you literally obliterate the right for everybody to go and walk....because only the wealthy will be able to afford it. Bank of Mum and Dad with three kids won't stretch. I carried my own infant sons up the hills strapped onto my back in a carrier. Imagine the insurance for that !
Yet my sons still walk those hills now, and contribute to the Mountain Rescue funds now.
As it stands, put that money you would accept as a reasonable amount into the kitty of the Rescue folks.....and sign every petition to keep the air ambulances and the helicopter rescue services afloat too.
The Rescue teams themselves say they don't want access restricted. Fair enough.
If you can't go up the hills without insurance then you literally obliterate the right for everybody to go and walk....because only the wealthy will be able to afford it. Bank of Mum and Dad with three kids won't stretch. I carried my own infant sons up the hills strapped onto my back in a carrier. Imagine the insurance for that !
Yet my sons still walk those hills now, and contribute to the Mountain Rescue funds now.
As it stands, put that money you would accept as a reasonable amount into the kitty of the Rescue folks.....and sign every petition to keep the air ambulances and the helicopter rescue services afloat too.
The Rescue teams themselves say they don't want access restricted. Fair enough.
It's a very difficult balance though isn't it?
I believe we have an inherent right to canoe British rivers; but as a fly-fisherman I understand why someone who has to pay (often large amounts of money) to fish those rivers doesn't understand why my access is free. I believe we have a right to roam open countryside but someone has to pay to maintain and look after the paths, gates, stiles etc. (and clear up after the idiots that treat the countryside as a big landfill).
When it comes to insurance though, most 'enthusiasts' wouldn't have a problem if they belong to an association that covers the interest. Most membership includes some level of insurance with it.
I wonder though how people value life and associated rescue. If it was clear there was a fee' to being rescued would people take more care? At what point in their difficulty would that group of four decide they would call in the rescue even if they knew there was a fee. What fee would they have decided was 'worth it'? The actual cost in time, training, kit etc. for the rescue was probably quite high - so would they be sitting there in the snow saying 'no, I'm not paying someone £1,000 to save my life'? There's a danger, if fees are charged, that people delay calling out support or don't at all leading to loss of life - and that's also wrong; people in difficulty, even self inflicted, should not be held to ransom. Maybe, if they do it again, it should be different ….
As I said, no easy solution
I believe we have an inherent right to canoe British rivers; but as a fly-fisherman I understand why someone who has to pay (often large amounts of money) to fish those rivers doesn't understand why my access is free. I believe we have a right to roam open countryside but someone has to pay to maintain and look after the paths, gates, stiles etc. (and clear up after the idiots that treat the countryside as a big landfill).
When it comes to insurance though, most 'enthusiasts' wouldn't have a problem if they belong to an association that covers the interest. Most membership includes some level of insurance with it.
I wonder though how people value life and associated rescue. If it was clear there was a fee' to being rescued would people take more care? At what point in their difficulty would that group of four decide they would call in the rescue even if they knew there was a fee. What fee would they have decided was 'worth it'? The actual cost in time, training, kit etc. for the rescue was probably quite high - so would they be sitting there in the snow saying 'no, I'm not paying someone £1,000 to save my life'? There's a danger, if fees are charged, that people delay calling out support or don't at all leading to loss of life - and that's also wrong; people in difficulty, even self inflicted, should not be held to ransom. Maybe, if they do it again, it should be different ….
As I said, no easy solution
Given the frequency of call-outs for the geographically small area that is Snowden it would make more sense for local Mountain Rescue to be funded directly by the car parking revenue. Last Easter bank holiday alone the council pocketed £8k just in parking fines at the foot of the mountain, so a small access surcharge per vehicle could sort of work.
I'm always uncomfortable about this insurance/payment for rescue thing. We see more of it in France where we have the Mediterranean and the Pyrenees on our doorstep. Every year we have tourists in trouble in the mountains or in or by the sea. The French seem more geared up for it with professional rather than voluntary responders who we all pay through taxation.
Many years ago, I was a volunteer lifeguard on the South Coast of England. We rescued quite a few "idiots" whose real crime was simply ignorance. Having been brought up by the sea and having the opportunity to swim, sail and dive, I grew up knowing the dangers of the sea such as tides and currents. It never occurred to us to blame those we rescued but it did help us to feel good by being useful and that was our reward.
I have been fortunate enough to have had adventures in some out of the way places and enjoy the process of risk assessment and preparation. Experience helps but has to be relevant. When we are in the hills or by the sea, I take the lead, but when we are in a city, my London born and London and Paris bred wife takes over. She sees and avoids potentially dangerous situations I have not noticed and has, for example saved us from being mugged.
I have not, so far, had to involve any of the rescue services. However, I reckon I have been lucky because increasing experience has shown me that I have got myself into situations in the past that I would blame on inexperience but could also be described as foolishness. If you read any reports of a man in the late seventies being rescued while walking alone in wild country or while kayaking alone along the coast, it may well be me!
Many years ago, I was a volunteer lifeguard on the South Coast of England. We rescued quite a few "idiots" whose real crime was simply ignorance. Having been brought up by the sea and having the opportunity to swim, sail and dive, I grew up knowing the dangers of the sea such as tides and currents. It never occurred to us to blame those we rescued but it did help us to feel good by being useful and that was our reward.
I have been fortunate enough to have had adventures in some out of the way places and enjoy the process of risk assessment and preparation. Experience helps but has to be relevant. When we are in the hills or by the sea, I take the lead, but when we are in a city, my London born and London and Paris bred wife takes over. She sees and avoids potentially dangerous situations I have not noticed and has, for example saved us from being mugged.
I have not, so far, had to involve any of the rescue services. However, I reckon I have been lucky because increasing experience has shown me that I have got myself into situations in the past that I would blame on inexperience but could also be described as foolishness. If you read any reports of a man in the late seventies being rescued while walking alone in wild country or while kayaking alone along the coast, it may well be me!
I think if you ask any MRT member you'll get the same response on insurance question. It's the same answer to the question often asked about whether mountain rescue should become a paid role like the emergency services. The answer I've always seen reported is no, definitely not.
My walking group organised its own charity weekend to raise money for LDSMRA, the organisation set up by all lake district MRTs to carry out activities and research best suited to being combined. As a thank you we had a talk given by the head of it. Very interesting talk and Q&A session. He made it quite clear that if it became a paid role many volunteers would resign from MRT. It was a strongly held position that the volunteer status was important. The insurance question was also not well received. He said that fund raising takes a lot of time up but they prefer that connection with the public. Being a fully state funded organisation or service would not have the same relationship with the public. That was the opinion of that very experienced MRT member.
As to these people, they made mistakes. Possibly they had bad advice. I've been in the lakes late in the daylight hours and came across prior like them going up in trainers and shell suit. They had no map only the printed, written pages of local walks given out by their hotel. It showed a route to Scafell pike via Great End.
We managed to talk them out of that but not to come back down with us via the quickest route. We raced down and got to our cars in dusk just as the snow came. We really only just got out of the valley before it started getting bad. There were no reports of MRT action there so I assume they changed their mind over carrying on and followed just behind us.
My point is visitors to an area from other countries might be in the country for the first time. They won't know our weather conditions in the hills and probably see the height as nothing much to climb. They often stay in hotels with staff who might not go walking in the hills. Hotels who have summer centric tourism information that doesn't apply to winter conditions.
Personally I can see how it could happen but I still think they were stupid. You often get into difficulty by pushing on past the point a wise man turns back. That wisdom is experientially gained mostly but common sense can help. Personality and group dynamics play into it. Would you as a young Male be the one telling your gang they've got to turn back because you thought the conditions were getting worse?
I'm not saying their choices were right when they're clearly not. Just that they've learnt through experience what hindsight tells us after we have been in difficulty. Can everyone here say they've never pushed on into the hills for longer than was wise? Does everyone back out before it gets difficult?
My walking group organised its own charity weekend to raise money for LDSMRA, the organisation set up by all lake district MRTs to carry out activities and research best suited to being combined. As a thank you we had a talk given by the head of it. Very interesting talk and Q&A session. He made it quite clear that if it became a paid role many volunteers would resign from MRT. It was a strongly held position that the volunteer status was important. The insurance question was also not well received. He said that fund raising takes a lot of time up but they prefer that connection with the public. Being a fully state funded organisation or service would not have the same relationship with the public. That was the opinion of that very experienced MRT member.
As to these people, they made mistakes. Possibly they had bad advice. I've been in the lakes late in the daylight hours and came across prior like them going up in trainers and shell suit. They had no map only the printed, written pages of local walks given out by their hotel. It showed a route to Scafell pike via Great End.
We managed to talk them out of that but not to come back down with us via the quickest route. We raced down and got to our cars in dusk just as the snow came. We really only just got out of the valley before it started getting bad. There were no reports of MRT action there so I assume they changed their mind over carrying on and followed just behind us.
My point is visitors to an area from other countries might be in the country for the first time. They won't know our weather conditions in the hills and probably see the height as nothing much to climb. They often stay in hotels with staff who might not go walking in the hills. Hotels who have summer centric tourism information that doesn't apply to winter conditions.
Personally I can see how it could happen but I still think they were stupid. You often get into difficulty by pushing on past the point a wise man turns back. That wisdom is experientially gained mostly but common sense can help. Personality and group dynamics play into it. Would you as a young Male be the one telling your gang they've got to turn back because you thought the conditions were getting worse?
I'm not saying their choices were right when they're clearly not. Just that they've learnt through experience what hindsight tells us after we have been in difficulty. Can everyone here say they've never pushed on into the hills for longer than was wise? Does everyone back out before it gets difficult?
But when peple climb mountain in stormy weather in trainers it is no accident.
I once got encouraged to look into volunteering with local MRT by friends in a walking group. I was seen as experienced by them. So I contacted the nearest lake district team. They had a rule that you had to be legally 15 minutes from the base. I was illegally that travel time (not much police enforcement).
They suggested contacting the pennine team as I lived officially in their area. Turns out it's the MRT that covers the largest geographical area. It operates from Manchester right up the spine of pennines for quite some way and Lancashire.
I didn't contact them because I simply didn't have as much experience of that area. I know the lakes not the pennines. I didn't consider that I offered enough to the team to go for it.
Having researched it I have respect for all MRT members. I've met enough to know they care so much about the lakes and their hobby to think nothing of putting their lives at risk to save people. It's not just land based but also river rescue. Then you've got volunteer coastguards, teams like bay rescue round here and those 4x4 drivers who volunteer in times of adverse weather. There's a strong community of what are effectively volunteer emergency services. More areas of activity than just MRT and RNLI.
They suggested contacting the pennine team as I lived officially in their area. Turns out it's the MRT that covers the largest geographical area. It operates from Manchester right up the spine of pennines for quite some way and Lancashire.
I didn't contact them because I simply didn't have as much experience of that area. I know the lakes not the pennines. I didn't consider that I offered enough to the team to go for it.
Having researched it I have respect for all MRT members. I've met enough to know they care so much about the lakes and their hobby to think nothing of putting their lives at risk to save people. It's not just land based but also river rescue. Then you've got volunteer coastguards, teams like bay rescue round here and those 4x4 drivers who volunteer in times of adverse weather. There's a strong community of what are effectively volunteer emergency services. More areas of activity than just MRT and RNLI.
And an update just now ….
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800
However, I do believe that a lot of sport does carry insurance or am I wrong?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-51473800
However, I do believe that a lot of sport does carry insurance or am I wrong?
"The four men, who were visiting Scotland from abroad, were taken to Belford Hospital in Fort William for treatment.
Lochaber MRT, like other mountain rescue teams, rely on grants and public donations for funding.
Responding to calls on social media for people to take out insurance before heading into Scotland's hills, or for people to be charged for being rescued, the team said such measures would be unworkable.
"Where do you stop? Insurance for fishing, rugby, football all of which have more incidents and injuries than mountaineering?" said the team.
The team said efforts should be focused on increasing awareness of mountain safety and weather forecasts, adding that the rescued four men should be "cut a little bit of slack". "
Lochaber MRT, like other mountain rescue teams, rely on grants and public donations for funding.
Responding to calls on social media for people to take out insurance before heading into Scotland's hills, or for people to be charged for being rescued, the team said such measures would be unworkable.
"Where do you stop? Insurance for fishing, rugby, football all of which have more incidents and injuries than mountaineering?" said the team.
The team said efforts should be focused on increasing awareness of mountain safety and weather forecasts, adding that the rescued four men should be "cut a little bit of slack". "
Isn't football responsible for more injuries than any sport? Even taking into account numbers taking part it's got the highest injury rate. Every ambulance call out for footie should get charged for.
Current us charging for ambulance to A&E is apparently $1500.
Current us charging for ambulance to A&E is apparently $1500.
Janne's right; someone has to pay so why not the person actually carrying out the activity as opposed to the general taxpayer? (being devil's advocate )
)
Other nations claim the right to bear any firearm they like is "Freedom", some claim the right to dictate what others wear or how they follow/interpret
religion, is "Freedom", while the UK, like much of N. Europe, is inclined to believe that free access to the outdoors really is "Freedom"
If only those who can afford insurance can be active outdoors then you limit it to those with extra in their budget....and in doing so you exclude most families with children.
The men who pushed for the original bothies and mountain rescue teams had no money themselves. In the 30's they walked up the hills in their wool breeks, tweed jackets and ordinary working boots. Yet those same men have left us a legacy of access that overcame every class prejudice that tried to limit the hills to the huntin' shootin' fishin' crowd.
Nowadays the Mountain Rescue teams, and all of the others, are volunteer. They are volunteer by choice, not by accident, but by choice.
They're the ones doing the work, I think we ought to listen to them and respect their choice.....well, that and see that they get enough funding to see them properly and safely equipped
M
religion, is "Freedom", while the UK, like much of N. Europe, is inclined to believe that free access to the outdoors really is "Freedom"
If only those who can afford insurance can be active outdoors then you limit it to those with extra in their budget....and in doing so you exclude most families with children.
The men who pushed for the original bothies and mountain rescue teams had no money themselves. In the 30's they walked up the hills in their wool breeks, tweed jackets and ordinary working boots. Yet those same men have left us a legacy of access that overcame every class prejudice that tried to limit the hills to the huntin' shootin' fishin' crowd.
Nowadays the Mountain Rescue teams, and all of the others, are volunteer. They are volunteer by choice, not by accident, but by choice.
They're the ones doing the work, I think we ought to listen to them and respect their choice.....well, that and see that they get enough funding to see them properly and safely equipped
M
Our son ( British citizen, but not domicile in UK) played Rugby in his boarding school (in England) . We had to get a separate insurance for him because of this. This was a requirement for all non domicile children.
I used to play ice hockey and swim when young, about 40 years ago, and despite a very similar health (welfare) system as in UK, the parents had to pay a certain, small sum, for extra insurance. One sum for the ice hockey, one smaller sum for the swimming.
This was done through the sports clubs.
School sports - no extra insurance needed.
Do not know though how they do it today.
I personally think 'idiots' like that should have to pay something volunteraly, but on the other hand, the whole idea with the European 'wellfare system' is that it should be covered, right?
I see it as a type of contract between the people and the State.
If a Brit gets wasted in Prague, and smashes up his ankle on the cobblestones in Old Town, he will get free care there.
At the end of the day, we must/should use our brains. I would love to know what those guys were thinking.
I used to play ice hockey and swim when young, about 40 years ago, and despite a very similar health (welfare) system as in UK, the parents had to pay a certain, small sum, for extra insurance. One sum for the ice hockey, one smaller sum for the swimming.
This was done through the sports clubs.
School sports - no extra insurance needed.
Do not know though how they do it today.
I personally think 'idiots' like that should have to pay something volunteraly, but on the other hand, the whole idea with the European 'wellfare system' is that it should be covered, right?
I see it as a type of contract between the people and the State.
If a Brit gets wasted in Prague, and smashes up his ankle on the cobblestones in Old Town, he will get free care there.
At the end of the day, we must/should use our brains. I would love to know what those guys were thinking.
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That argument applies to so many lifestyle choices we make. Let's charge for everything from statins to diabetes type 2 treatment. From football injuries their ambulance taxi to hospital to mountain rescues. See how popular that is.
There's so many things that could be considered a lifestyle choice that charging for one but not the others could be unfair.
Most MRTs get funded by grants and various forms of public donations. I bet a lot of it comes from people who go into the outdoors so they're paying for it.
As to general taxation, we're all paying into a pot. From that pot a lot of things we probably don't benefit from or support. That's the system as it is. Indeed if you're not earning a decent pay you're probably a net beneficiary of the taxes paid by others. Iirc 50k was a figure I read.
There's so many things that could be considered a lifestyle choice that charging for one but not the others could be unfair.
Most MRTs get funded by grants and various forms of public donations. I bet a lot of it comes from people who go into the outdoors so they're paying for it.
As to general taxation, we're all paying into a pot. From that pot a lot of things we probably don't benefit from or support. That's the system as it is. Indeed if you're not earning a decent pay you're probably a net beneficiary of the taxes paid by others. Iirc 50k was a figure I read.
One thing that amazed me when we moved to UK was all those (extremely useful) voluntary organisations.
Voluntary, but very professional.
Voluntary, but very professional.
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