OS 'Access Land'

[TomH]

I went for a wander t'other day in what my OS Explorer denotes as AL, Access Land.
I (am fortunate to) live in the Heart of The National Forest in South Derbyshire and these patches of land predominantly consist of some form of wood/forest ranging from newly planted to established fir to relatively old mixed and deciduous.
Apart from being little patches of heaven, my question is, if public access is granted to these areas, then surely if I happen to be walking at dusk and happen to have a tent/tarp in my pack and happen to fall asleep in or under one of these, then that's fine right?
An open fire or use of an axe on living trees is always asking for trouble I know but Access means access, regardless of whether its dark or not.

 

[Pterodaktyl]

Sadly the rules on access land in England and Wales specifically prohibit camping. I don't believe there would be anything to stop you spending the night on access land if you were night hiking, wildlife watching etc. but actually setting up a tent or hammock and sleeping there isn't allowed unless you get permission from the landowner first.

 

[greensurfingbear]

come to Scotland we don't have daft rules like that. You can pretty much camp in most wild places. THe access laws here are awesome

 

[TomH]

We have some strange laws. So i could sit in a chair all night as long as i don't nod off but i cant lie down in or under anything even if i stayed awake. And walking around all night is more lawful than sleeping even though we're predominantly diurnal as a species.

I should go to Scotland you're right. I will do one day. It would just be nice to get some nights in the woods a bit closer to home to start with so i can get back to my missus should i get hungry, cold, scared or all three.


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[bigroomboy]

Its just because of the population density of England and as a fall back legal stance to stop travelling communities setting up on wilderness land. The access laws in Scotland are great but there are still plenty of problems and upsetting scenes especially in areas close to the densely populated central belt.

Even more importantly I feel is the access to inland water in Scotland. It is just crazy in England and Wales.

 

[boatman]

Cannot see what the objection to a nice lie down at night is as opposed to the day time. Bivvy bag and a nice big thermos flask and you would be set for the night.

 

[TomH]

I can sort of see the point about travelling communities but you'd think a bit of common sense could be applied, i mean, i'm quite obviously not a travelling community.
This access to waterways situation as you've said, is pretty dire.

Thats what i'm thinking Boatman, who's gonna know??


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[British Red]

Please do not abuse the privilege of access land. Leaving aside the fact the morality of using other peoples land for a purpose they have not agreed to, and the fact that it is against the forum rules to encourage or condone illegal acts, it is people who cannot follow the rules that have seen other sites withdrawn - e.g. the new Loch Lomond byelaws. It really is very selfish to break the rules and spoil it for others.

 

[didicoy]

You /we have been awarded a right to pass and re-pass, wander, roam. Not really to loiter, certainly not to camp. Although a privilege for the users. It is a small relief for the land owner. Who may still have to maintain any Public Rights of Way across the land, at the owners expense. With Open Access/access land, the owner now has reduced liability should you wander off any PRoW. Travellers don't always go around in packs! Any existing right for you, is a right for a traveller. We all owe it to ourselves and others, to respect, come what ever.

 

[ammo]

Get yourself a fishing license, set up camp by the water, and if you happen to fall asleep waiting for a bite, well that's your loss and no ones buisness. Try to get permission from who ever the land owner is wherever you are, remember you have a right to travel.

 

[boatman]

In advance of the Right to Roam there were great efforts made to plough as much of the Downland of Wiltshire as possible so as to the reduce the area available. Right to Roam has removed our foraging rights and we are supposed to be grateful? I slept where I wanted on the Downs long before any right to roam and if I lived in the same area would still. Still no definition of camping so one assumes bivvying isn't. Are they really going to repeal the act because of some overnight sleeping, talk sense.

 

[Goatboy]

In advance of the Right to Roam there were great efforts made to plough as much of the Downland of Wiltshire as possible so as to the reduce the area available. Right to Roam has removed our foraging rights and we are supposed to be grateful? I slept where I wanted on the Downs long before any right to roam and if I lived in the same area would still. Still no definition of camping so one assumes bivvying isn't. Are they really going to repeal the act because of some overnight sleeping, talk sense.

But the forum cannot be seen to condone or promote illegal activity. Tony, the MODS/ADMIN and everyone put in a lot of hard work and the rules should be followed out of respect for them if nothing else.

 

[boatman]

Actually there is a definition of camping given in the legislation for Dartmoor:
6 Camping
(1) No person shall knowingly use any vehicle, including a caravan or any structure other than a tent for the purpose of camping on the access land or land set out for the use or parking of vehicles except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.
(2) No person shall knowingly erect a tent on the access land for the purpose of camping:

(a) in any area listed in Schedule 2 to these byelaws;
(b) within 100 metres of any public road or in any enclosure.
​

(3) No person shall camp in a tent on the same site on the access land for more than two consecutive nights, except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.

Notice the requirement that a tent is involved for it to be camping.

 

[British Red]

Actually there is a definition of camping given in the legislation for Dartmoor:
6 Camping
(1) No person shall knowingly use any vehicle, including a caravan or any structure other than a tent for the purpose of camping on the access land or land set out for the use or parking of vehicles except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.
(2) No person shall knowingly erect a tent on the access land for the purpose of camping:

(a) in any area listed in Schedule 2 to these byelaws;
(b) within 100 metres of any public road or in any enclosure.
​

(3) No person shall camp in a tent on the same site on the access land for more than two consecutive nights, except on any area which may be set apart and indicated by notice as a place where such camping is permitted.

Notice the requirement that a tent is involved for it to be camping.

The very paragraph that you have quoted forbids the use of caravans and "any structure other than a tent" for camping.

It expressly forbids the use of anything other than a tent for camping and then stipulates the circumstances in which a tent, and only a tent, is permissible.

It not only acknowledges that other structures may be used, but goes on to expressly forbid them.

[Actually there is a definition of camping given in the legislation for Dartmoor

No, there isn't. The legislation does not define "camping" it defines what structures may or may not be used for camping (btw,just to help you, the OP was talking about South Derbyshire - Dartmoor is not in South Derbyshire)

So:

Not relevant to the OP,
It does not define camping,
It specifically does not state that only a tent can be used for the purpose of camping, it merely states that the only form of camping permissible on Dartmoor is that subset which uses a tent, and then only with further restrictions,

 

[boatman]

Camping involves a structure which would certainly include tarp configurations of course. A bag is not a structure. Under English law that which is not forbidden is permitted so sleeping in a bag which is not a structure is not forbidden.

 

[British Red]

Camping involves a structure

That is not stated in the paragraph you quoted or anywhere else in law that I can find.

All the paragraph you quoted does is limit the structures that may be used for camping. It does not state that the use of a structure is a defining characteristic of camping.

Really - the law is clear - you may not camp on access land. Trying to play barrack room lawyer with words changes neither the letter or the spirit of that law.

 

[boatman]

Fin al word on this topic from me. Nowhere can you find a prohibition against stopping and even sleeping. except on a footpath itself perhaps. What is more important is the creeping fear of "doing the wrong thing" out of doors promoted by some on this forum. A learned judge in the thirties said he trespassed many times during the year, it being a tort for which there is an action but one most landowners refuse to take because of its triviality.

Of course for many on this forum a trip outside must include a rucksack of many litres capacity and the set up of the boringly similar home from home with tarps and fire and all. This misleads the novice who asks for help and is immediately inundated with legal proscriptions and warnings against dehydration etc.

Get out and enjoy it even though you might be footsore, wet, a bit lost and a bit nervous should be the message. Sleep when your sleepy and drink when your dry as the song has it. We all did years ago and the law ain't changed.

 

[bigroomboy]

The act that set up access land specifically does not permit camping. It says so on all the signs on and around access land and I'm sure it is on the internet somewhere. The land belongs to somebody and camping is not permitted under your right of access. Its as some as that. You make your own decisions in life and live with the consequences. Whilst you may not have any intention of causing damage or a nuisance the law has to be there to protect against the many people who would. Why should the landowner have to take the chance?

 

[didicoy]

Fin al word on this topic from me. Nowhere can you find a prohibition against stopping and even sleeping. except on a footpath itself perhaps. What is more important is the creeping fear of "doing the wrong thing" out of doors promoted by some on this forum. A learned judge in the thirties said he trespassed many times during the year, it being a tort for which there is an action but one most landowners refuse to take because of its triviality.

Of course for many on this forum a trip outside must include a rucksack of many litres capacity and the set up of the boringly similar home from home with tarps and fire and all. This misleads the novice who asks for help and is immediately inundated with legal proscriptions and warnings against dehydration etc.

Get out and enjoy it even though you might be footsore, wet, a bit lost and a bit nervous should be the message. Sleep when your sleepy and drink when your dry as the song has it. We all did years ago and the law ain't changed.

Quite a personal statement. As a reply from a land owner (private). If I came across you sleeping, with or with out, in or out of a tent (of any description) on my land. I would tap the bottom of your foot, with one of my boots as you sleep and ask you kindly to move on. Obviously we all play it our own way & neither can cast a stone. Your not bigger than the law and your rights go only as far as anyone with authority allows. But good luck trying. I know from personal experience, how difficult/na impossible it is, to get permission to camp on Forestry Commission land. Even when your Forestry Commission staff. It really is a case of One for All.

 

[boatman]

Oh dear, one must reply. You may request that one leave and if one does then you have no right to use force. Should you do so then you would be breaking the criminal law. But then you of course you appear to want to promote the fear of the out doors which is a weird sub-text to this forum.