Oh to be a Celt

[Womble]

Gotcha!

In purely archeological terms (as I understand it from talking with archeologists), the culture that is defined as "Celtic" refers to a central european geography. The two main centres of culture (in terms of defining periods of development) are Halstadt and LaTene. Connected with this culture - at least reasonably close would be the gaulish tribes of the area currently covered by France, the germanic tribes, the celtiberians of the spanish peninsular, and the various cultures of the british isles.

These particular ones have actually only been called "celtic" for a matter of a couple of hundred years, and this label originally only really refers to the fact the the pre-saxon invasion peoples' languages (welsh, cornish, breton - the "Q" celtic ones; gaelic, manx and scots gaelic - the "P" celtic ones) resembled the continental ones. The Q and P bits here refer to pronounciation, for instance the word for "five" would be a variation of "centum" in the Q group, "Penta" in the other. Presumably that means in gaelic they sould be called pelts rather than celts...

a much, much much(!) more professional way of saying this can be found on the BBCs Website, here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/peoples_03.shtml

However, the cultures of the welsh, scots and irish are still there, and the vast majority of people will still call the celtic regardless! I tend to cringe (just a little...) when I see CDs marked "Celtic...<yadda yadda yadda>", because the chances are that it's probably going to contain lots of irish fiddles, whispery vocals, swilrling synths, bodram drums and possibly a lonely bagpipe or two...

 

[jamesdevine]

There is currently a bit off a debate here as weather we can call ourselves truely celts. As a Maritine nation we have influence from all over the world our music can be found in Africa as well as similarities in our language and dance.

I the town I grow up in Rush there is a area call Drammanagh(I am sure I have spelt this wrong) which roughly translates as the place of the foreigners and is supposed to be the home of refugees from holland fleeing the romans (it's also supposed to be the family of Emer Cuchulain's wife) then there is evidence the they traded with the romans at least(they may have had outpost here) and then Vikings, Normans, English, Spanish, French and Germans it's really hard to sit here and claim that I am a celt(My surname might point to some other origin).

Any back to the thread. As with everyone it's hard sometimes to be part of this false world so those times when in reality with real work and real human contact are more important and to be remebered as I am sure your sons will for a long time to come.

James

Womble gets the first and puts far better.

 

[Swampy Matt]

a much, much much(!) more professional way of saying this can be found on the BBCs Website, here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/prehistory/peoples_03.shtml

A quick check of the link and we find that the article in question is written by Simon James, author of 'The Atlantic Celts - Ancient People or Modern Invention?' a book that also puts across the idea that Celts did not exist in Britain, to much controversy when it was published.

I've yet to find any other archeologist that agrees with him - please point me in their direction or show me their research if you can as I'd really like to read it.

Oh, and Welsh, Cornish and Breton are 'P-Celtic' languages. Irish, Manx and Scots are 'Q-celtic' languages.

 

[Womble]

I always get them the wrong way around! I'll look for other stuff.

EDIT: I've got a friend of mine looking for any info (he's the one that first put the celtic question into my mind), I'll post on here what he gets me.

 

[Womble]

Ok my friend has come up with the following (he's given me permission to quote on here what he wrote):

QUOTE
"Off the top of my head:

"In "Facing The Ocean", Barry Cunliffe (Oxford University) explicitly espouses the same position as Simon James. A dozen years previously, in "Iron Age Britain", Cunliffe was still writing about Celtic migrations into Britain, so times have changed.

"I know that Jane Webster at Newcastle University is a strong supporter of the Simon James school of thought but I'm not sure to what extent she's published anything specifically on that point. Worth a Google, probably.

J. D. Hill (British Museum) is good at challenging conventional assumptions about Iron Age archaeology - his critique of Cunliffe's earlier interpretation of hill-forts is implicitly also an argument against "pan-Celtic" interpretations of Iron Age Europe.

"And I've just found this, in which various luminaries in Iron Age studies queue up to challenge the notion of Celts in Britain:

http://www.stephen.j.murray.btinternet.co.uk/iron.htm

"Dr. Simon James, Lecturer in Archaeology at the University of Leicester:
"The conventional view of 'Celticity' is that, largely due to migration from a Central European Iron Age homeland, much of Continental Europe and the British Isles shared a common package of Celtic language and culture . . . An emerging alternative view is that the similarities exist, but their extent is sometimes more apparent than real; that it is the local identities, and therefore the differences between these people which are important. The idea of a universal 'Celtic cultural package' is seen as dangerously misleading."

John Collis, Professor of Archaeology at the University of Sheffield:

"There was no cross-European Celtic people. There was no broad-based Celtic art, society or religion. And there were never any Celts in Britain."

Dr. J.D. Hill, Curator of the British and European Iron Age Collections at the British Museum:

"No one is denying that people in Iron Age Britain spoke Celtic languages, or shared certain common cultural traditions with their contemporaries in mainland Europe . . . What has been shown to be untrue, however, is that there existed a single Celtic race whose members all had the same religion, psychological traits, and type of society, and who recognised themselves as 'Celts'. . . it is the differences in all aspects of life between neighbouring areas that seem to have been more important than the similarities."

Mick Aston, Professor of Landscape Archaeology at the University of Bristol, sums up 'Celtic' as:

"A rather misused term which really ought to be reserved for references to languages. In fact, it is used for art styles and racial or ethnic types and even as a geographical and chronological term. Best avoided if you can think of a more specific or accurate word!" "

UNQUOTE

 

[lardbloke]

Being a practising archaeologist/scientist I have always been fascinated with the 'Celts' (Slane 2000AD).
I cannot say I am widely knowledgeable on all things Celtic as I am not. From field knowledge from working across Europe and speaking to learned peoples such as members of the establishment on the above lists, the only thing that possibly links us with the Germanic tribes is possibly artistic culture and associated technologies. There exists the odd written account from the Roman scribes and Commanders of the time that describe a similarity between the existing Germanic tribes and the people’s of the British Isles. There is nothing much that exists from this period that can readily define what a Celt is in general term. In archaeology, we find pieces of metal working (generally because this is all that survives in the burial environment) that has been fashioned with what can be termed as 'Celtic' imagery or detail. This imagery can then be compared against others such as the Germanic tribes. Maybe we simply had a few artisans who taught the ancient Romano Britons these patterns, the same as we learn things at a Moot. Most of archaeology is conjecture, we find a few flint shards in a particular pattern and before you know it some scholar has created an entire civilisation and economy based on fantasy. I believe that there may have been some Celts that had moved into Briton possibly for trading purposes or they stayed after a raid (mercs) and became merged into the present cultures. The locals adapted to what they saw and liked, forming their own distinct brand of 'Celt' and the remnants still exist today (red haired people, (or where they Nordic) anyway lon live the Gingers).

 

[Wayland]

There is an old saying in the circles I move in,

"If you put three archaeologists in a room, they'll come out with ten theories."

 

[lardbloke]

There is an old saying in the circles I move in,

"If you put three archaeologists in a room, they'll come out with ten theories."

lol...thats about right...

I work with the re-enactment of Iron Age/Pictish lifestyle bods up in Shetalnd when I go up from time to time (Brochs and all that). I enjoy the experimental side and it comes into its own with bushcraft/outdoor skills.

 

[Wayland]

Yes, I've been very interested in all the crossovers from living history to bushcraft.

In fact I wonder if many of us are not in some way seeking to recreate a historical lifestyle unawares.

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

Archaeology is the anthropology of dead people. Linguists have distilled new world languages into two main families in support of a first and second population wave. All I know is you can put two living representatives of different tribes, er PC 'Nations' next to each other at a Pow-Wow and odds are they have some ancient grudge or racist atitude against each other that would make a Klansman proud. Ever work out a seatiing arangement at a conference and have to remember who is lakota and Blackfoot? It's all grand fun to try and sort out the past and even lay claim to some particularly romantic heritage. As anthropologists the idea is still to understand where we came from, who we are,and where we should be going. When I see riots between orange paraders and the police over the 'right' to march through a catholic nieghborhood on a T.V. in California and receive an excited phone call from a holdout 'hardman of the PIRA' almost joyfully telling me " it's starting again" - The last thing I want to be is a damned Celt, La Tene, Mainland, Boston basketball player, or anything else

 

[Swampy Matt]

Cheers Womble, I'll have a look at the names in your post and 'dig up' ( ) some of their research.

Just a thought that occured to me today - How would people react if a post had been made saying 'No Jews existed in Israel'? Especially the reactions of those people who regard themselves as Jewish (by race, not just by religion).

I think there would be allegations of racism, particularly if the post was made by someone Arabian.

Regardless of the opinions of some archeologists, as someone who has Irish, Scottish and Welsh in their ancestry, I could take offence at the statement:

No celts in the British isles. They were a mainland european culture.

<sits back and waits...>

But we are far to friendly a forum for this to have been intentionally offensive, aren't we.....

 

[Spacemonkey]

Were they indeed.... that's not what I understood Mate (what about the Scots and Irish?... do tell more?

Bam.

The modern Scots are Irish of course....

And Wicca (on another post) was invented by a chap called Gardner in blue rinse Highcliffe in the New Forest coastline (where I was born) just before the War. Their coven made a 'cone of power' during the war on the beach there to ward off the evil hun. Maybe that is what causes the strange hum that can still be felt/heard on occasions in the Christchurch/Boringmouth area... But anyway, it has nothing to do with wicker men. Oh, and the other chap who guided him to form this new cult was a chap called Alasteir that you might have heard off.....

 

[lardbloke]

But we are far to friendly a forum for this to have been intentionally offensive, aren't we.....

I would hope we are. I dont think any offense was intended by anyone (at least I hope not). It is all too easy to fly off the handle at such remarks especially when one cannot read anothers emotion very easily (hence emoticons). But such remarks usually begin to spiral out of control, especially with todays political and religous climates. I enjoy this forum because it is level headed adults discussing things that interest me. On other forums if this subject had reared its head, we would have offensive lines being thrown back and forth by now and the thread would be closed. Lets keep it sensible please.

 

[Swampy Matt]

I would hope we are. I dont think any offense was intended by anyone (at least I hope not). It is all too easy to fly off the handle at such remarks especially when one cannot read anothers emotion very easily (hence emoticons). But such remarks usually begin to spiral out of control, especially with todays political and religous climates. I enjoy this forum because it is level headed adults discussing things that interest me. On other forums if this subject had reared its head, we would have offensive lines being thrown back and forth by now and the thread would be closed. Lets keep it sensible please.

I agree - but i still think it needed to be put into context. I could have taken offence but I didn't.

If the thread does start to get offensive then I've got two options
1) Let the Mods deal with it.
2) Strip naked, Spike my hair with lime, Paint myself blue and start waving a Sword and Shouting.

I'll take the less celtic of these options

Gotta say though, this is definately the most level headed and moderate of any forum I've been part of. There's one forum (a martial arts one) where easily 9 out of 10 threads turn into a flamewar - I don't think i've seen one flamewar on BCUK - I hope I never do.

 

[BorderReiver]

I'm a Scot and wear the kilt (and all the other gear) on special occasions.

I am also fully aware that tartan was "invented" by Sir Walter Scott in the 1800s and that the current kilt was modified from the original great kilt by an Englishman.

So what?

There can be no full blooded celts left anywhere.There cannot be a "pure blooded" Briton left anywhere on these islands.We are a wonderful mix of races and cultures and have been for centuries.

So what does it matter,if in someones opinion,there are no Celts in Britain?

If you consider yourself to be a Celt,Pict or anything come to that,good on you.

Let them prove that you're not.

 

[bilko]

AH!

When i said Celt i was talking about the naive and romantic idea i have in my head of living in a round house and using the forest as my pantry. With the occasional high feast and pi$$up with all my mates
Good to see that a discussion can remain level headed here though

 

[ChrisKavanaugh]

You don't have to be a celt to do that. my greatgrandmother had a word for doing that in gaelic.The rough translation was 'bums'

 

[bilko]

Oh to be a bum!

 

[Rhapsody]

I'd rather be a viking than a Celt, methinks, although my heirtage is almost entirely Scotch and Irish (and what little is left came over with the Norman conquest, so I guess I'm a viking somewhere down the line ).

Vikings ruled, and don't anyone try telling me that there were no Norsemen in Scandinavia!

Also, the opening post reminded me of a quote from Fight Club: "In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway."

I like that quote... and if that doesn't show some divisions in the forum, then nothing does; you're all off talking about ancient anthropology, and I jump in and quote a Brad Pitt movie!

 

[lardbloke]

I would have always liked my lineage to be either Celt or Viking, its just a romantic ideal really. The Vikings on our fair shores were supposed to be nomadic farmers, rather than the bi-horned murders portrayed in film.

My family are Scots/Irish going back just two generations (most people I speak to regarding an English genealogy, never accept themselves as English and are always something else, there appears to be a stigma attached??). On my Fathers side it turned out we were/are Spanish Irish. Probably after the various sea battles against the English the seamen ended up on the Irish shores and the rest is history. My Mothers side are Scots, so eventually we can go back to the Irish again. I think the Roman/Saxon invasions ended all ideals of Celtic/Viking lineages, after a few hundred years of various stages of occupation by alien forces we are probably a mix of Germanic/French/Spanish/Italian etc. Me, I am British.