Oak coppice

[slowworm]

Has anyone seen actively worked oak coppice? The youngish oak in my woodland keep getting hammered by grey squirrels and will never grow into decent mature oak trees. There's a couple of thousand trees and looking at them it is hard to find any that have escaped bark stripping. Rather than cutting them out and replacing I'm considering coppicing them but would like an idea of what the woodland would look like and what use the wood would be in the future. What sized poles would I get in 10 or 20 years time, how many per tree?

The trees are around 40 years old and sprout readily from their trunks when the top is killed off by the squirrels, so young enough to coppice. They will need protecting as the deer do like young oaks and I will be somewhat limited to the number I can coppice each winter.

 

[Broch]

But... the squirrels will damage the young coppice growth as well! It is very annoying.

If you do go that way, consider planting one maple (such as sycamore) for every few oaks. First, they really are quite good invertebrate habitats, and secondly the squirrels love maples and will take those rather than other saplings (or coppice growth).

The only oak coppice I have is a few very old trees- probably the oldest in the wood as each stem is 40 to 50 cm diameter.

 

[Glow_worm]

I've visited oak coppice in south Cumbria, it was some years ago now but it was and is worked for spelk basket making.

 

[slowworm]

But... the squirrels will damage the young coppice growth as well! It is very annoying.

It's not to stop the damage but rather to find a use for the land. The squirrels have caused so much damage the oak will not grow into anything useful, so it's either replace them or try something like coppicing where damage may be less of an issue. Having said that, the trees are getting tall enough for the squirrels to avoid being shot, so coppicing may well help.

I have plenty of maples, some such as the field maple were almost killed but have recovered somewhat. They've not been touched much this year but the oak has been attacked about a month earlier than normal and they've started on the old oaks in the hedges which have been left in previous years.

Here's an example:

 

[slowworm]

I've visited oak coppice in south Cumbria, it was some years ago now but it was and is worked for spelk basket making.

That's the sort of ideas I'm after, sounds similar to the black ash baskets in the US. I've also read the bark from coppiced oak was used to tan leather and I would think the poles produced would be ideal for shiitake production as well.

 

[Chris]

Having said that, the trees are getting tall enough for the squirrels to avoid being shot, so coppicing may well help.

This is why .308 is the best anti-squirrel round.

 

[Broch]

I hope you are joking

The best way to deal with squirrels is by baiting and shooting - that way a simple air rifle will do the job without the risk of ricochets or a round going miles into the distance.

By using nut basket bait I have shot 40 one year and 26 this year just in a 4 acre patch. I wouldn't dream of using anything more powerful and, with the silenced PCP, I can usually shoot 2 or 3 before they realise something is happening.

 

[Toddy]

There's a push to re-establish pine martens in territories where they formerly flourished.

Martens on the Move

Pine martens are part of our rich wildlife heritage and play an important role in keeping our woodlands healthy and balanced. Since 1983, Vincent Wildlife…

www.vwt.org.uk

If you have suitable woodlands......

 

[slowworm]

I'm mainly interested in coppicing the oak rather than squirrel control. I know what works best in the woodland and that's trapping, but I often don't have the time.

If you look into the pine marten release for Devon they clearly state the martens are not likely to do much to control the grey squirrels but if they are in the area you should stop using lethal traps - so basically they will make squirrel control more difficult. (See PDF at the bottom of this page: https://www.devonwildlifetrust.org/two-moors-pine-marten-project-faqs )

 

[Broch]

Apologies, point taken. The real problem with coppicing is that there is low demand for product. We have a number of members with coppice woodland that are struggling to find a market for traditional coppice material and are looking at other ways of managing the woods. Whether there is demand specifically for oak coppice material I don't know. The only member I know that is making a financial return on his Alder coppice is producing high quality charcoal.

Having said that, as you have found, oak coppices well when young, though growth is often far from straight. I would expect 15 year old poles to be between 4" and 7" in diameter depending on the position, aspect, and elevation (our trees, on the Northern slope, at 250m grow very slowly, much slower than the DBH measurement). I suspect you will already have researched 'oak coppice' but it is typically cut to only around 3", 4" at the most, from the ground. It is severely damaged by deer browsing.

There is some demand for oak chip for food smoking and for oak charcoal. 7" straight poles would be suitable for small gates, fencing, and garden furniture. Bark is sold for traditional tanning; cleaved logs for baskets, shakes, and lathes.

I you are a member of an organisation, such as Small Woods, they will be able to give you a list of potential markets in your area.

 

[Broch]

We will have to agree to disagree on the squirrel control though; bait shooting vs bait trapping (even using resetting traps) is currently about 10:1 without a great deal more time and effort

 

[slowworm]

I bait and area and shoot squirrels at home and tried it in my other piece of woodland so I know what works. I've found different things work better in different settings, the woodland in question does have some uncommon features that make control a bit more tricky.

As for the coppice, I'm curious to learn about historical oak coppicing as you don't hear much about it. I'd also like to leave something more useful behind when some one else owns the land, I don't have any plans to make money from the produce.

 

[Broch]

Oak was not traditionally coppiced as much as hazel and chestnut because the real value in oak was in the full tree growth. Also, it grows more slowly. But there is currently some support for coppicing oak woodland to increase biodiversity - so coppice with standards etc. Historically, it didn't have a 'grey squirrel' problem and there were other trees, with less full-growth value, that coppiced faster.

My references list oak coppiced for iron smelting, charcoal, fuel, and bark for tanning and other (undefined) processes.

 

[Kadushu]

The bark for tanning I understand but was there a reason why oak would be chosen over other species for the other uses?

 

[Broch]

The bark for tanning I understand but was there a reason why oak would be chosen over other species for the other uses?

Well, it is a better firewood than hazel and, I suspect makes a 'hotter' charcoal (but I'll have to check that with our charcoal maker). From a raw material point of view, no, I cannot see any real advantage as it grows much more slowly - and that's why it was less used.

 

[Toddy]

Oak lasts longer though.
Hazel is usually coppiced around seven years, given a year or so either way, well the ones I know of up here. By then the hurdles made from it are rotted and it's time to renew.
Oak ones, made from the splits/slats seem to last over ten years. Same with the baskets, etc.,

 

[Toddy]

I'm mainly interested in coppicing the oak rather than squirrel control. I know what works best in the woodland and that's trapping, but I often don't have the time.

If you look into the pine marten release for Devon they clearly state the martens are not likely to do much to control the grey squirrels but if they are in the area you should stop using lethal traps - so basically they will make squirrel control more difficult. (See PDF at the bottom of this page: https://www.devonwildlifetrust.org/two-moors-pine-marten-project-faqs )

The reason I mentioned the Pine Martens was this,
"Research has shown that the presence of pine martens helps control grey squirrel numbers. In north Scotland, red squirrels have coexisted with pine martens since the early 1980s in large areas of native species and mixed plantations. The exact process of how pine martens control grey numbers is not fully understood." that's from land and forestry Scotland.
But then, we've always had some pine martens, they weren't eradicated here, I don't know if that means that the ecosystem that supported them is different enough that they do seem to take grey squirrels.

 

[slowworm]

The key bit for me is "The research in Scotland suggests that for pine martens to have an impact on grey squirrels, martens have to have been present for many years and occur at relatively high densities. Therefore, it’s likely it will be several years before any impact on grey squirrels is seen in England, as the population will need time to build up to a higher density."
The PDF goes on to say it is highly unlikely the martens will eradicate grey squirrels.

So, they would not do anything to help my young trees but would stop me using traps and drey poking/shooting.

Going even more off topic what concerns me more about their release is the impact on other wildlife. The PDF mentions black bird predation and having watched the blackbirds round here struggle in our dry springs and noted new diseases killing them off I will not support another threat to them.

 

[Broch]

The big word in woodland conservation circles at the moment is 'Resilience'. So, if we are planning for the future, which is far from certain in terms of climate, tree pests, and diseases, we want a wide range of tree species, a wide range of tree ages, and a wide range of structure. If you already have plenty of species in the wood then coppicing some of the oak will likely improve structure. Standing dead wood, as you know, is valuable and has always formed part of healthy woodland, so I would leave some of the damaged trees up if they are not a safety issue.

 

[demographic]

The explanation I heard about Pine Martins and greys v reds was that greys spend a bit more time on the ground than reds where the Pine Martins are better at catching them.
The martins eat whichever they can catch but the reds aren't as easy to catch.


I can attest to the efficacy (or lack of it) of one method of taking greys.
Dog, specifically this one.

Last weekend he caught his first squirrel (grey) and he's four years old.
Four years is a lot of dogfood for one squirrel so its a good job I didn't get him for his hunting abilities or he'd have been given his P45 ages ago.
He caught it on the ground and shook it til it stopped squeaking then wasn't interested anymore.