Nomadic vegetarian?

[Porcupine]

While chatting with some friends a few days back we came upon the subject of food and bushcraft. Normaly its hunter/gathering techniques all the way in survival/bushcraft.

Would it be possible to sustain a vegetarian lifestyle year-round asuming you dont farm part of your food?

 

[Toddy]

I'm vegetarian and have been for most of my life. I reckon the answer is, with difficulty in the temperate north. Possible if you plan well and gather and store nuts and grains and legumes. Failing that it'd be hard work and you would need a sizeable area, that you knew well, to forage. It'd need to be a varied area from shore or riverine to pine and broadleaf forest and meadows.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Rebel]

I'm no expert but I reckon it would be very difficult in the UK to survive in a true hunter gather lifestyle without meat of some sort.

To sustain yourself through the cold winters and to have enough energy to keep going you would need plenty of fat and proteins. If you were able to store food you might be able to get through the winter on vegetables you'd stored, but during the early spring months you'd have very little food.

IMO without some kind of fish, meat, dairy products or eggs I think it would be almost impossible to sustain a small group of nomads in the UK year after year.

I don't know if anybody ever tried it. Maybe they did and can prove me wrong.

 

[Carcajou Garou]

I no of no aboriginal group that is strictly vegitarian, they are all omnivores (eat what doesn't eat them first) even Inuit are not completely carnivores they eat any summer accessible moss,lichens plants they can gather as well as the stomach content of the cariboo that actualy taste like a vinigrette salad
As was said before winter would prove the hardest time as the cold climate demands more caloric intake than can easily be found in a vegetarian sourced paleo diet.

 

[oops56]

Gee first man ate meat and fish now look how good looking we are now.

 

[xylaria]

In india you get wandering sadus that don't eat meat. But as far as I know they depend on the good will of others, and pass blessings on those that give them food. India also has plants like chick pea (chana dhal) growing wild. So I think if there there is/was vegeratarian nomads it would be in the indian sub-contenant as the environment is very rich.

Western europe does have enough wild nut, grass and legumes varieties to get some where near a balanced diet, but whether these are plentyful enough to provide enough calories is another matter.

 

[Toddy]

From a human point of view I wholeheartedly agree but I've been thinking about this; how do the deer manage?
There's thoosands of them and they're grazing some pretty poor and exposed land all year long. Is it just their guts that are different? Is the food there but just not accessible to us? Could we make it accessible?
How much calorific intake do we actually need to survive a Winter outdoors? I'm a little fat lady but I lose a lot of weight in Winter and more so when I'm not sore and can actually get out and walk lots. To live off the land all Winter I reckon I'd get back into my size 10 wardrobe no bother at all.

Farming is a world wide development among humans and appears to have several starting points; the fertile crescent, the fayoum, s. America, Africa, India, China.......almost like an idea whose time had come.

Farmed foods have changed us; for instance, look at how much trouble teeth cause. How many here have no wisdom teeth because they were removed because there was no room for them? If from infancy we chew heavily the jaw develops slightly differently and it can accomodate all the teeth that erupt.
Most of us in Western Europe can digest dairy products; it was a resource, and an ability, our ancestors successfully exploited, people in other areas cannot do this. Similarly with alcohol, the product of over ripe fruit and fermented grain.

I don't think that an entirely unfarmed diet is appropriate for us; I think we have changed enough, and it has hugely benefited us a species, that farming is now at the root of our subsistance.
Defining farming though can be tricky. Do I include the fruit collecting I do every year, the nuts I gather? Why? because I prepare and store them......in jars in my pantry along side the commercially grown and prepared stuffs.

I know that I can see where I have removed materials from the wild, annual crops aside, and with them I see them drift about over the years; nature isn't in stasis. How much can the natural world support if everybody suddenly started cropping it? I doubt it could for very long.

I was working in Inverness-shire and Skye and Lochalsh last month; it was really noticeable as I drove North just how far the tree cover had extended in my lifetime, only when well into the Grampians did the trees disappear into only the occasional burnside runnel. Why? Well we don't all have open fires any more and "sticks" were always needed for the fire, every time the coal went up in price down came more trees. Not needed anymore so we let them grow; most folks spend their at home lives watching the box or munching so they don't even go walkabout among the trees. I suppose it leaves more breathing room for those of us who need the wildwoods

I've just finished the very last of the acorn coffee, time to go dig up some dandelions methinks

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Stuart]

I wrote an article entitled "the reality of food in the bush' which was split over two issues of the Bushcraftuk magazine 'Bushcraft' (issues one and two) part of this article covered the topic of your question and I have included those four relevant paragraphs below:

THE WILDERNESS VEGITARIAN?


A knowledge of flora is fundamentally important skill for wilderness living and depending entirely on foraging plant foods might at first seem an easy way to provide the body with all the food it requires, after all plants do not actively evade you in the way that animals do!

However with the possible exception of tropical forests where plant foods are in abundance all year round, you will be unable to supply yourself with adequate nutrients to live solely from local flora unless you have a detailed knowledge of at least 200 different edible species present in the area in which you intend to live. Including how to identify them, where to find them, the correct gathering season, the method of preparation, and the possible toxic look-alikes for each species.

Even if you possess an extensive botanical knowledge, attempting to provide all your food needs by foraging local flora is not something that can be undertaken without a great deal of prior planning and preparation. Plants are seasonal, so those that depend on foraging plants to provide much of their diet rely on stores which they collected and prepared during the correct seasons. There estimated to be more than 80,000 edible plant species worldwide but whilst many edible leaves, shoots and stems contain useful minerals and vitamins most contain very few calories. Stinging nettles for example are one of the most nutritious plants available on the British Isles, nettle leaves have surprisingly high calorie content at 65 cal per 100 grams (compared to cabbage and broccoli at around 25cal/100g) and are rich in vitamins and minerals, yet you would have to obtain and consume four kilograms of nettles a day to provide yourself with 2500 calories!


In the UK it is only the edible roots, seeds and nuts which contain enough calories to be useful as a staple food source, but of course acorns, chestnuts, hazelnuts and beech nuts whilst crammed full of calories and easily gathered are only available during autumn. Wild root vegetables though best in spring are difficult to unearth and much smaller than the cultivated varieties to which we are accustomed, with most wild root vegetables only growing to around the size of your thumb. Thus foraging enough plant foods from the wild to provide yourself the necessary quantity of calories, whilst also collecting and processing enough to store for the less plentiful seasons would require an enormous amount of time and effort and in most parts of the world would be almost, if not entirely impossible without the benefit of extensive cultivation.

 

[lofthouse31]

I reckon that you could have a pretty good stab at provided you have the right knowledge as said before.
But i think there would be times when you would have to cheat.
I dont know how stricktly vegitarian you are but i think your chances of surthriving would be much increased if you could bring yourself to include insect cuisine.
also tree saps are a useful source of nutrients.
im no expert on them but im going to start a thread in a minuite to find out.
i also think that you would need to be constantly thinking of how much energy your spending.
you could plan it out and give it a try that would be one hell of an experiment and i for one would be waiting on the edge of my seat to hear how you get on.
if you have to cheat to keep healthy its no probs

 

[lofthouse31]

oh you have sparked my touch paper with this thread, ive decided if you wouldnt be offended to try and plan and put this to the test myself.
Its going to take a lot of planning and a long while before i start it.
im pretty new to bushcraft and this would be about as good a way to educate myself as any.
I dont want to tread on your toes however if this a project that your heart is set on pioneering the way on.
let me know mate
cheers, stiggy

 

[xylaria]

Ibe much increased if you could bring yourself to include insect cuisine.

Can you eat wild plants/fungi while avoiding insect protein? Most wild food is hopping with something.

We have lost that much knowlegde of edible plants and techniques of harvesting i don't think anyone can say 'you can't find enough calories with british wild plants'. Digging up roots is hard graft in british soil but pulling up cattail is very easy with the right technique. But my digging skills are pants compared to aussie aboriginal who seemly can dig up massive roots without braking a sweat. Processing the cattial into flour, is hard graft but then grinding farmed wheat isn't very easy either.

If you remember RM attempting to gather bilberries in siberia, the locals had a very efficient technique where they scooped a basket along the bushes. RM tried and messed up, the women laughed and said he gathered fruit like he was a bear. Gathering is filled with little tricks like that. We have lost that knowlegde. I can pick a massive amount of haws in a very short period of time because I have a knack, which i have practised. There will be knacks with things like processing beech mast but I don't know what they are so i dont feel obliged to say how efficient or inefficient a food source it is.

Nobody can pass judgement on whether vegetarianism is viable in NW europe because there is not enough knowlegde of gathering techniques of our local flora or fungi.

 

[Toddy]

Good points.
I frequently teach children and it never fails to please me when I see a child pick up a skill quickly and easily when so many adults struggle to make or do something. It's as though the young brain is hardwired to make the connections between the eyes and the hands and still do the rational part that thinks about maybe there's a better way

I'm a fussy pain about preparing the stuffs I cook or dry and preserve; I make real efforts to remove all insects from my foodstuffs....... it really puts me off dinner finding a bright green boiled alive caterpillar in my broccolli

cheers,
Toddy

 

[xylaria]

Or the 1cm deep fungi maggots at the bottom of the wild mushroom soup, that you have just eaten.


..... and then promptly retaste....... :tongue-ti

 

[Porcupine]

Lofthouse31, i wont be offended if you try to find things out, forums in general are to share things, not sharing an idea would be kinda selfish i think

Personaly im a happy omnivore, im leaning towards mr whittingstall philosophy that it is important to treat animals well but that it is perfectly acceptable to enjoy em after their demise too.

Vegetarians happen to follow a different aproach, it was wonderment at the implications of their choice that made me ask this question . If you are willing to try this i will be looking forward to hear what you find out but please keep safe, the kate moss look is not good for you.

Also keep in mind that knowing how to find a balanced vegetarian diet in the wild might be good knowledge, hares and deer run like the wind but ive never been outrun by a carrot :yelrotflm


All others that replied so far i would like to thank also, and who knows,we might just have started the new bushcrafthype , nomadic vegetarianism

/edit

the stupid thing is how more i think about this and read up stuff the harder it seems to do. it does spark the imagination though

/end edit

 

[lofthouse31]

cheers for that, youve certainly sparked my imagination.
Ive been looking for a project for a while now.
It may from the drawing board stage turn out to be an imposability but even if thats the case it will be good use of my time search all my local natural resources and gaining the extra knowledge and like i say im not above cheating a little.
many thanks for the inspiration this will keep me out of mischief for months,
cheers
stiggy

 

[BOD]

...

Nobody can pass judgement on whether vegetarianism is viable in NW europe because there is not enough knowlegde of gathering techniques of our local flora or fungi.

It would be nice if those who have some knowledge of gathering techniques would share them with the rest and perhaps do a tutorial. It would be a change from the usual knife and forging ones (which are interestingtoo, I hasten to add).

My reading of the thread thus far is that the focus seems to be on the individual. Gathering would have been a group affair with the elderly and children participating as well (and maybe even the men )

One might think that the outcome would simply be the total of individual efforts but I am not sure of that.

More eyes and feet cover a greater area and notice more gathering opportunities so optimising the collection. Having more hands means the effort of digging up difficult roots can be shared with less expenditure of calories.

This also helps with food preparation and so on.

As always long term survival is a group undertaking.

 

[rik_uk3]

While chatting with some friends a few days back we came upon the subject of food and bushcraft. Normaly its hunter/gathering techniques all the way in survival/bushcraft.

Would it be possible to sustain a vegetarian lifestyle year-round asuming you dont farm part of your food?

I think you would starve to death as a single person; you need a group to plant and harvest crops in the UK in order to survive long term I believe.

 

[xylaria]

It would be nice if those who have some knowledge of gathering techniques would share them with the rest and perhaps do a tutorial. It would be a change from the usual knife and forging ones (which are interestingtoo, I hasten to add).

My reading of the thread thus far is that the focus seems to be on the individual. Gathering would have been a group affair with the elderly and children participating as well (and maybe even the men )

One might think that the outcome would simply be the total of individual efforts but I am not sure of that.

More eyes and feet cover a greater area and notice more gathering opportunities so optimising the collection. Having more hands means the effort of digging up difficult roots can be shared with less expenditure of calories.

This also helps with food preparation and so on.

As always long term survival is a group undertaking.

Alright got the hint, I'll work out how to post piccys then:yikes:

I can give top tips,
Bilberries will be out soon, I have tried the ray mears bear impression and broke a handle off the basket. so I use child labour instead. Under sevens are perfectly designed to pick the low fruit. They end up very purple. I did supply my own child labour for the job but they are getting a little big so i have to borrow other peoples now. Children are good berry pickers generally.

Nettles; put coat on backwards. Put hands half way down arms and then crouch. Make well between knees and body with back of coat. pick nettles put them in the well that has been made with the coat.

cattail; use a solid wooden walking stick to poke around the mud to loosen it around root. You should feel the root running off in one direction. Poke to loosen the mud along the length, and then when the body of the plant is moving around as you poke turn the walking stick handle side down. Submerge into mud and hook under the length of the root and pull up wards. Take care not to fall backwards when the whole plant is released from mud:borgsmile . The root I feel is not very productive this time of year. During the winter I found if I grate the root gently with a fine grater a reasonably productive level of starch is separated from the string. [this process probably needs pictures]

I sure I think of some more. The haws needs pictures. But it basical entails using your hands as the combs on a berrypicker, and hooking a basket on the bow.

 

[Toadflax]

You may want to have a look at Fergus the Forager's web site http://www.wildmanwildfood.co.uk/. I don't know anything about him, but found his site when I was trying to find bushcraft web sites.

Although I see now that he has a link back to our Bushcraft Magazine, so maybe he is already well know here.


Geoff

 

[gregorach]

From a human point of view I wholeheartedly agree but I've been thinking about this; how do the deer manage?
There's thoosands of them and they're grazing some pretty poor and exposed land all year long. Is it just their guts that are different? Is the food there but just not accessible to us? Could we make it accessible?

Well, the thing about ungulates and ruminants is that they can digest cellulose, which we can't. If we could, it would be a very different story.

I have heard (word-of-mouth, long story) of a couple of people who tried to live on a foraged vegeterian diet in the UK... They both lost a lot of weight and ended up with severe nutritional deficiencies in the space of a few months. Whether they were making full use of all the available foods I couldn't say...

While it's true that foods like acorns and beech nuts can provide a really important source of fat and protein, you've got to remember that not every year is a mast year. This would have been extremely important to our ancestors - for example, it's said of Cormac mac Airt (a legendary high-king of Ireland) that one of the reasons his reign was particularly auspicious was because every year he ruled was a mast year.