New School's on the block so to speak

[theknight]

Who the hell started this post?! :shock:

I am sorry if I have said the wrong thing here but it seems to me that no one can mention the word ' school' without WW3 starting!

In my line of work I see business's spending thousands on advertising and PR, they would give their back teeth to get the publicity that 'schools' get here and they are getting it for nothing!

I may be wrong but the 'schools' have no real imput into this site and it's members, but the demand for their course's must be going through the roof at the moment.

Well done Gary for handling it with such dignity and grace............perhaps others could follow your example by giving and not just receiving.


Nick.

 

[Stuart]

well said

 

[theknight]

And another thing.

Surely this site is about us, the members, and of course anybody else who wants to get involved. This site is about what we do and how we do it. Where we go and what we have seen, bought and learnt recently. If the ' schools' want to get involved then fine......welcome aboard. If they don't, then big deal so what, they don't run this site and this site isn't run for them!

I have meet some of you guys and we have all learnt something from each other and I have learnt loads from this site also. I was pretty much in the dark before I found BCUK and now I have meet some wonderful people and learnt stacks and I have bought kit of people on here and the service from them, is quite frankly, some of the best service I have ever had and believe me, I know what I am talking about.

I can see that this site will grow in to a great resource and it will inspire people to get out there and have some wonderful experiences. I think we are lucky in having such knowledgeable people on the site willing to share what they know, for nothing and that is pretty rare these days

 

[Adi007]

Absolutely ...

Think about it ... would you buy a PC over the Internet if the description was such:

PC
Beige box
Some bits attached
£1000

No, you'd want more info - lots more, yet routinely, the outdoor leisure industry (and let's not kid ourselves, that's what it is, leisure industry - commercialization of the outdoors), expects to get away with that kind of selling. Here's a web page - now gimme £500.

Personally, I wouldn't go on a course with anyone that wouldn't give me a refund after the first hour for a day course or at the end of day 1 for a 5 - 7 day course - period.

Personally speaking, if I was looking to attend a course, I'd be looking to find someone I felt I could learn from. Apart from having the knowledge and skills, it'd also be important for them to be patient, supportive, nuturing and unassuming.

I'm paying, and if I simply didn't like the bloke, why on earth would I want to suffer a week in his company, at my expense?

 

[Martyn]

well said

Ditto that!

 

[chris chris]

post removed

 

[Adi007]

Oooops ... makes more sense now!!!

Adi007 - I didn't quite understand the last paragraph about refunds on 1 day courses, are words in the right places or am I missing something, could you please check it out for me?

 

[chris chris]

post removed

 

[Adi007]

Interesting point, on what scenario would you request your money back, because for example.
A person books on course,
Said person turns up thinking he could get round a no alchohol policy,
At course start realises this is not possible without exposeing his want for alcohol,
Person throws teddies around
Demands his refund because the course is not what he thought. (Even though it stated it clearly)....I have actually seen this happen.
...

No, but I might if there was a no-alcohol policy that was suddenly changed at the request of a student!

Another scenario could be weather related, ie nice and sunny when left home, arrives at course to find his instructors rain dance prayers are to be answered for the next 7 days - wants out......and I've seen this more than once.

Nope ... not that either.

Would you request your money back because you do not like the instructor, even though you are the only one out of a dozen or more people who feel this way, the law of averages must make this happen on every course at every school for some reason, because I have yet to meet the most popular person in the world.

Now you're getting closer. A personality clash is never a good thing. Neither for the student concerned, the other students or the instructor. Basically in this case a school would be better off giving the student their money back since it's never good to just cling on to a customer just because you have their money.

This scheme of money back after the first hour/day (depending on length of course) is commonplace in tech training (say MCP, MCSE, Novell ... etc) because basically the best way that a training company can show that it stands by its product is by offering a money-back guarantee (remember that some offer this at the end if you don't pass, although this isn't as common). I don't think that reputation is everything. If that was the case, would Ford or Vauxhall let a bad car come off the assembly line? No. But no matter how good the reputation, things can go wrong. What should the folks who got the first batch of WS Woodlore knives have done when there was a handle issue? Forget about it and put it down ti a bad buy? No. Equally, did this happen because WS isn't reputable, no. See, you need a guarantee, and nothing beats a money back. :-D

In the perfect world all things would be black and white but us brits with the best reputation in the world at escaping situations will allways come up with a way to abuse any and every system on offer. Hence the point to use a reputable company :-D

Personally, I don't think we complain enough in the UK ... :-D ... but I'll leave that for another day.

 

[chris chris]

Post removed

 

[Adi007]

Really - I wouldn't have a problem telling someone I didn't think it was gonna work out ... especially if I'd paid £500!

Bear in mind that a money back guarantee is a safety net. Not something to use on a whim.

However, in business the phrase to remember is "the customer is always right!"

 

[theknight]

I have done alot of outdoor related courses, military and civvie and come across a very wide variety of instructors, they never fell into one mould,some I liked immensely and some I personally couldn't stand, but not one of them were bad instrustors, I accepted the fact that I would never be lucky enough to like all instructors and got on with it. In honesty one reason I didn't like one instructor was because I was inwardly envious of him, because he was doing what I wanted to be doing - and doing it very well, in fact I hated him, so I thought I'm going to get my monies worth from you and he proved to be the best instructor I've had yet.



Chris.

None of us are Gods! We can all do what the other man does................if, and I mean, if, we wanted to!

 

[boaty]

...in fact I hated him, so I thought I'm going to get my monies worth from you and he proved to be the best instructor I've had yet.

Top marks for honesty Chris :super:

I don't teach bushcraft (nothing like!) but teaching has been a major part of my entire professional life, and I can cope with teaching people who hate me as long as they have the same attitutde that you do - "I'll screw as much as I can from this *******"

What I find hard to deal with are people who seem to want to be disruptive, e.g. arguing from a position of ignorance - I'm very happy for debate and questioning of what I teach (delighted in fact that they're awake enough to do so!) but when it appears to be done just to disrupt the class then I get cross :twisted:

On an outdoors course, where safety is an important issue, there must be times when the instructor says "Jump" and the only sane response is to jump

 

[chris chris]

post removed

 

[Adi007]

No, never had a bad experience - I guess I always have a good idea of what I want in advance and what I want out of something.

As to consumer law, the two laws in the UK that cover this are the The Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, with the key phrase being that a service has to be carried out 'with reasonable care and skill' and be "as described". With a service that's been paid for in advance things are different to a shop where you don't like the owner - you can just walk out. If you've paid up, then things change.

Basically, I'd suggest anyone parting with cash to get in touch and find out for themselves. Talk to the instructor is possible and if in any doubt, don't! There's plenty of other places that want you money!

 

[Richard]

I think that this is an interesting thread and having attended a number of schools, I would support the advice to choose very carefully and do your research. Also, try to get the opinions of those with a bit of experience who have attended a variety of schools rather than just one, as even poor teachers/practicioners with relatively little knowledge and skill can impress new-comers.

There is a danger that forums like this however can distort the picture somewhat. I have seen very good schools take a rather 'public' knock for very minor reasons, and not-so-good ones be recommended. I guess that this is an unavoidable part of any web-forum, but worth bearing in mind.

Until some form of accreditation or quality standard exists for bushcraft instructors, the best you can do is lots of research, and be prepared to challenge the instructor if you have doubts. A good instructor will have no problem proving his/her worth and will also be honest about their limitations.

Also, remember that formal schooling should only be a launch-pad and/or supplement to your our own on-going practice!

 

[Roving Rich]

:ekt: well said Richard. We are as careful as we can be here, and are constantly treading on eggshells. But everyone has their own opinion and the right to express it. So don't take it as gospel as it may well just boil down to personality clashes, inflated egos or one minor niggling bad experience.
My advice is get as many opinions as you can. And phone the school up and discuss what you are looking for from a course, and what is offered, before parting with your money.
I am sure you are within your consumer rights to ask for your money back. But personally I would not do this. Its the last resort. Any misgivings I would discuss as I went along, giving the opportunity for the instructors to help or take it up at the end of the course when there is usually a discussion.
The place you vacate cannot be filled at short notice by a school so they will end up out of pocket. It would have to be an atrocious school to warrant such action IMO.
Just do your Homework.
Cheers
Rich :-D

 

[Adi007]

Exactly! The more research you do, the better! And the more info you get in writing the better because if you've got info in writing and you seriously think that you've haven't got what you paid for, you can then safely turn to the The Sale of Goods Act 1979 and the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 for protection.

I agree that no one should ask for money back lightly (the law doesn't allow for it anyway), but on the other hand never fear doing so either because that's a road to disaster - I'm not talking here just about training, I've just sorted out for a client a laptop problem that dragged on for over 6 months that was only finally sorted by turning to the law and asking for money back - then, miraculously, everything was sorted. A corporate entity, no matter how big or small, has two things that it wants to keep hold of ... reputation and money, unfortunately nowadays the reputation can be exhausted much quicker than the cash and money is sometimes the only lever left.

Research, research and research some more!

Just do your Homework.
Cheers
Rich :-D

 

[Richard]

But there are also a lot of companies set up by good people who care deeply about their subject and who wish to try to earn a living doing something they love. 18 years ago people where probably saying "That young Ray Mears fella whose he then? - he'll never make it no experience."

This is a good point Gary.

There are a number of dedicated people who start-up part-time 'schools' because they love the subject and feel they have something to offer but also feel they are not in a position to launch into a full-time venture.

For my part, I enjoy running occasional workshops and demonstrations alongside my main job. They key with this is to recognise the limits of one's expertise and only teach those subject where you feel appropriately accomplished. My approach, given the limited time I have each year, is to concentrate on teaching the basics to give people with little experience of the subject a solid foundation and real enthusiam. I stick to a tried and tested course programme where the emphasis is on helping people to fully understand the core skills through clear, structured learning. If people want to go on to learn more specialised or advanced skills, I can then point them in the right direction, be it with me or someone else. What a good instructor would never do is take money for teaching beyond his ability just because he's 'hooked' a loyal student. All teachers have a responsibility to be honest and to steer a dedicated student in the most appropriate direction even if that's away from their own schools.

The other point about part-time instruction has already been made. A lot depends on what the instructor does at other times. I agree that many jobs do not allow a person to always maintain their skill and experience. However, sometimes having another job can enhance the experience an instructor can bring to his/her students. I am fortunate to work in wildlife conservation and ecology where I get to use 'bushcraft' skills such as animal track & sign identification and plant identification in a professional capacity. Prior to this, I also spent many years teaching outdoor environmental field-work and some outdoor pursuits to people from all ages and backgrounds, in all weathers. I also voulunteer for my local Search & Rescue team. All of these 'applied' aspects provide useful experience just as Gary's army career has, but don't always come with the label of 'Bushcraft'

The point is that although a school may be part-time, its instructors might actually be practicing elements of bushcraft, nature awareness and teaching (in less obvious ways) 'full-time'. Conversely, many full-time schools employ good part-time instructors to lead some of their courses. Any 'rule of thumb' on course selection should bear all this in mind.

 

[max]

I'm with Chris on this,

After undertaking courses at the 3 schools mentioned above by Chris and also at some new part time outfits that came along through the years, of one of these a part time instructor attacked one of the students, the gulf between the standards of safety and course qaulity was immense.

After wasting my money on "fly by night - think they can do it" outfits I stick firmly with the older outfits who have established themselves well within the subject, once bitten twice shy and all that.

The skill topics I gained by attending the 3 schools Chris mentioned have been so varied and comprehensive, this rules out the need for me to go to new schools who, appear to be trying to regurgitate the same courses.

A point I would like to add is the comment above by someone saying that the schools don't give to this forum so therefore they must not be putting anything back into the subject, was a bit unfair, this forum or site is yet to become the authuoritive bee all and end all to the subject so just because someone doesn't contribute to this place doesn't mean they don't give elsewhere, in fact I personally think it was an insult to people who I know work very hard for the cause and give much more than they recieve.

A similar comment could be made,that maybe it suits the guys starting up to contribute to this forum to get recognition and to build a potential customer base, something the older schools may not need to do.

So for now I'll stick with the variety of instructors I know and trust. No offence is meant to you new guys but I think most people will understand my comments and approach, good luck.

By the way, last week was the first week I contributed to the forum, many hours in fact and in doing so, I failed to prepare myself correctly for my weekends bivi and hike. This week I kepted the computer turned off, I have prepered a new route plan for this weekend, been out in the evenings testing out and perfecting some new kit (stove,compass and gps)the rucksacks in the boot and I'm ready to go, see ya Sunday night.

Oh Chris, thanks for a good adventure last weekend, thawed out yet?

Max