New knife purchases from shop in person only?

[FoxyRick]

Why wouldn't the post office by interested? They're losing contracts to courier companies all the time and this would be a perfect opportunity for them to make use of their network of physical premises. No extra cost required as they would get the delivery contracts and don't even have to deliver to your door. It's win win for them.

And it's lose-lose for those of us who end up having to pay extra for this. I still doubt that the PO will be interested, given the numerous times you'll hear of a PO refusing to accept a parcel with knives or air guns in, even though it is legal to send them. If knives are being portrayed as evil things (they are) then who is going to want to get involved with it? As I say, I might be wrong on that. Money talks, after all.

you can object all you want but no one is listening.

Thanks, but I thought we were having a discussion and I was giving my opinion. I did not object to anything to do with the PO, other than the high charges they will impose. If they did it for free I would (unhappily but realistically) accept that as a compromise situation on the proposals. That's a daft thought of course; no-one will do it for free. Why should they?

and what ban is being implemented?

That would be the proposed 'ban' (give it a different term if you wish, but that's what it is) on having knives delivered to a residential address... the very root of the thing that I thought we were discussing along with the further erosion of our freedoms by unreasonable legislation.

 

[daveO]

Of course there have been...

Exactly. So why oppose the enforcement of the law?

No it isn't, the proposal isn't anything to do with going into a shop.

Yes it is. Online shops have the same responsibilities as physical shops. It's the same situation except you can't see it going on.

Not quite; a payment method is also needed. Which acceptable online payment methods are legally available to children? I don't know of any.

Debit card. You can have them from 14 I think and a lot of shops accept them for age restricted sales.

Say that to Heinnie Haynes, or the large number of custom knife and tool makers in the UK. You are tarring responsible, diligent people with the same brush as the main online culprit, which should be tackled directly.

Heinnie Haynes are very responsible however even big companies like Screwfix and Amazon don't require ID for sale of all knives. Sadly it does hit the responsible sellers as much as the bad ones but until the proposals have been debated and the solutions proposed then we can't really say if Heinnie will have more work or if their standards will be used for other retailers. It might be the case that they have the playing field leveled to their advantage.

The government absolutely should be prosecuting shops that sell to underage people. That's the point above that is not happening, and instead new legislation is being proposed that will not even solve the problem of youths obtaining knives.

Shops don't want to be prosecuted I can assure you but they know how hard it is to get caught under the current system. You will never stop youths obtaining knives but what do you do as a government? Give up and just let everyone have a free for all or make sure your current laws are being abided by?

Let's think about alcohol for a moment... many online suppliers exist who send deliveries directly to our homes. I know, I have most of mine delivered. From various places including the main culprit in all of this. The deliveries need signing for and the couriers specifically check the age of the recipient. Again, I know because one of the couriers I briefly chatted with told me they have to, that's how he knew it was alcohol in the box (he was asking if I had got something nice). So, it is trivial for online sellers to do the age thing for alcohol.

Why cannot the government proposals simply insist that the same procedure be followed for knives? (as it should be IMO). That would not in any way restrict our freedom and would answer the requirement of age checks using an already existing system. Cheap, as effective as the proposals would be, and simple to implement.

You'd be surprised how many big online retainers don't ask for ID in alcohol sales. Again, if online companies weren't dodging their responsibilities then this legislation wouldn't be required.

 

[FoxyRick]

Well, we clearly can't agree on this. Answering your last post would simply be restating what I have already said as I don't see anything new in your argument. I guess you've all heard enough by now.

Time for a cup of tea methinks.

 

[Corso]

These threads are such a waste of time

I'd save my energy and contact you MP I'd also air my views in the consultation, make the effort it might be our only chance

 

[FoxyRick]

make the effort it might be our only chance

I couldn't agree more.

 

[daveO]

Well, we clearly can't agree on this. Answering your last post would simply be restating what I have already said as I don't see anything new in your argument.

Just the facts that shot your argument down?

You've got to remember that online shopping is a relatively new phenomenon and as with anything new it has evolving legislation covering how it works. It's not as if there's any precedent set for this kind of thing so what can you compare it to? We've all become a bit spoiled recently expecting cheaper and cheaper stuff delivered to our door as quickly as possible and as cheaply as possible. Now people think it's suddenly their right to have this service and that their freedom relies on it? You would have to prove your age to buy a knife in a shop but suddenly it's against your human rights to have to do the same to an online shop? Please...

You are correct that there are simple solutions to this whole issue though. So simple that it makes you wonder why they aren't in place already. I can't see it ever working if it has to rely on courier drivers to check ID though just because of the way those companies work at the moment and the pressure of time scales and delivery targets they already have to meet. Licensing departments carry out sting checks on shops all the time to make sure they check ID but who would monitor courier drivers? They don't have fixed boroughs to work in and don't require licenses or CRB checks as far as I know and quite a few are self employed. You can start to see why physical premises are being proposed.

 

[Janne]

I think is horrifying that a person has to be 18 to buy a knife.

 

[FoxyRick]

Just the facts that shot your argument down?

Not at all, in fact you are ignoring the points I'm making. If you want to carry on though...

Please don't put words into my mouth. I've said nothing about rights or human rights. Stop using 'arguing tactics' and changing the target. I've talked about the freedom to do something (that we currently enjoy) and not being needlessly restricted.

I have an opinion on this matter, which I have stated and have every right to do so within the limits of the forum rules here that we are privileged to enjoy. You are equally entitled to yours, and we are both entitled to try to persuade others of our points of view.

I believe the proposals will have negligible effect on youths getting hold of knives, and have given some reasoned evidence to that effect. You have not argued with that.

That, surely, is the whole point of the legislation, if we are to take it (and the government) at face value.

If it won't work, and will only restrict innocent people from doing something we currently can, it is wrong to implement it.

You are clearly happy to have additional legislation that will restrict freedoms we currently enjoy. I am not.

And with that, I really am out of this now pointless 'discussion'.

 

[Jaeger]

Aye Up,

Blimey! I've only been away 48 hours and had to read through 3 pages!

First up I would suggest that airing your views on here isn't a waste of time - there are some knowledgeable (and experienced!) people here who can offer wise words which might help others (who are not necessarily contributing to the thread but perhaps following it) and helping to view things from perspective(s) that they may not have considered.

Many of you are making good points about the suggested alterations to legally acquiring a knife, a lot of which make good sense - but - IMHO opinion all you are doing is conveniently adding smoke to the screen that government (whichever) is creating to mask the true nature of the problem and I am surprised that only one aspect of it has come up here.

Taking it that the currently suggested controls come into place and fail - which they will - and some of you have already stated why - sooner or later the elephant(s) in the room will have to be addressed - STOP and SEARCH and SENTENCING.

But of course there is an element of the population who WILL get their a%*!s out on the street to protest against any rigid application and strengthening of those issues so in the mean time the easy target will continue to take the incoming - why? - because we will be too lazy to stand up for ourselves and each other.

As a by-the-by - last evening a 'friend' told me that whilst walking around a local city with her friend she noticed that each time a certain person passed them by, her friend became distracted and nervous. What type of person? - those simply carrying a bottle of (drinking) water!

 

[Janne]

I wonder which mentally deficient person dreamt up the 18 limit?

 

[Alan 13~7]

You'd be surprised how many big online retainers don't ask for ID in alcohol sales. Again, if online companies weren't dodging their responsibilities then this legislation wouldn't be required.

Let's think about alcohol for a moment... The deliveries need signing for and the couriers specifically check the age of the recipient. Again, I know because one of the couriers I briefly chatted with told me they have to, that's how he knew it was alcohol in the box (he was asking if I had got something nice). So, it is trivial for online sellers to do the age thing for alcohol.

Not always!
Only yesterday, My 8 year old accepted a postal delivery from trnd (free sample market research) of a 700ml bottle of KOKO KANU Jamaican rum & was not asked for Id or a signature at point of receipt? ... I don't know who the courier was? It had a a meter 18000 - 13ten bar code package label if that is of significance?

 

[daveO]

I wonder which mentally deficient person dreamt up the 18 limit?

It's the age when you're legally considered to be an adult in the UK (and most of the rest of the world).

 

[Janne]

So a soldier, age 16 can not buy a knife??

I was going to write hobby fisherman or Scout, but thought a soldier is a better example.

Sure, 18 is the age you are considered legally to be an adult, but frankly it is a stupid to think a person age 11 is not capable of using a knife...

I went with my son when he was 6 or 7 to buy his first knife. Better to start early, while they learn easily! Taught him well, if I can say so myself, he only cut himself once or twice since! 22 now.

 

[daveO]

So a soldier, age 16 can not buy a knife??

Nope. The question over whether children should be soldiers is a whole different debate though.

To clarify though; a child can carry a knife* in the UK but you're not allowed to sell a knife to them. Just as a 16 year old would need parental consent to join the army.

*subject to the usual sub 3" non-locking blah blah blah

 

[hughtrimble]

Nope. The question over whether children should be soldiers is a whole different debate though.

To clarify though; a child can carry a knife* in the UK but you're not allowed to sell a knife to them. Just as a 16 year old would need parental consent to join the army.

*subject to the usual sub 3" non-locking blah blah blah

Such knives are also exempt from the 18 year old age limit for being sold one.

 

[Janne]

The 'Non locking' rule I fail to understand.

They are much safer for the user, specially a young/new knife user.

I still have my EKA (locking) folder dad gave me on my 9th birthday. I have just replaced the handle, from red plastic to Juniper Wood.

 

[daveO]

The 'Non locking' rule I fail to understand.

They are much safer for the user, specially a young/new knife user.

I still have my EKA (locking) folder dad gave me on my 9th birthday. I have just replaced the handle, from red plastic to Juniper Wood.

This is the fault of the UK legal system I believe. The rule was that any folding knife under 3" was legal daily carry, then some case came to court and a lawyer successfully argued that a locking folder should be classed as a fixed blade. The UK legal system works so that the results of one case sets a precedent for all future cases and this is now established law.

Children can still use a locking folder or fixed blade though the same as any adult can, they just have to stick to the usual 'with good reason' rules. Non-locking is good enough for most occasional uses though.

 

[Janne]

My dads generation had to carry small knives, a blade of 2 inches about, to school.
To sharpen pencils. Also carried small glass flasks of ink for the pens.
Happy Days!

Then WW2 came and changed the World to the PC place it is today!

 

[Laurentius]

Like a lot of knee jerk legislation, it may well for practical reasons, end up more honoured in the breach than observed. Ebay in the UK at least forbids the sale of knives outright, but you will find plenty of billhooks, scythes, axes and other generally useful blades there, cos I guess they are tools.

What would worry me about the legislation more than the trouble of having to turn up in person to collect something. (Having parcels stolen from my doorstep recently I now go for click and collect whenever the option is available, as the excercise does me none harm and the security is better) is that it would deter some sellers and drive them out of business. I rather like traditional Sheffield blades which are anything but PC these days, but what eejit gangster goes through the hassle of ordering them on line, possibly waiting for the blade to be made. Likewise with swords. It is not quality that calls out to these teen age zombies, but a wicked looking blade innit. I am glad when I was only 13 I bought my first "sheath knife" as they were called then, to distinguish them from the ubiquitous penknife you would take with you to junior school with no-on e batting an eyelid, in person, but under my dad's supervision, that I had some discernment and bought a good quality bowie blade.

 

[Faz]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40684581


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk