New knife purchases from shop in person only?

[slowworm]

I was dead against the ban until I read plenty of knives are still being sent out to under 18s. Although I pay via credit card I don't think my age has ever been checked over the last few years. Perhaps some shops have only themselves to blame?

I would be more concerned with the impact on shops and people who sell/buy tools direct for work purposes, would chisels, saws etc also be caught by a direct selling ban?

As for post offices acting as a place to pick stuff up, I doubt that would work as many people have trouble currently posting knives via a PO don't they?

 

[Corso]

legitimate shops will use the electorial role to check your over 18

If they were sensible they'd work on a first validation process, i.e the first time you used a service you would need to go in person to that store, after which you could continue to shop remotely

 

[Faz]

It'll end up the same as buying an air gun. You either go to store or it's shipped to a store near you and you collect there. Name and other details and photocopy of your ID kept on file at the dealer you buy/collect from.


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[Corso]

problem is where the hell are the knife stores also what will be the deal with 2nd hands sales?

 

[Faz]

They'll drag registered firearms dealers into it. Private sales could be like current private air gun sales. You can sell the knife to whoever you like if they say they are 18+ and send it via courier.
I'd rather see it left as it is and the punishment for being caught with a knife for no good reason actually enforced to its full extent rather than people feeding the judges a load of rubbish and getting minimum sentence.


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[demographic]

legitimate shops will use the electorial role to check your over 18

Unless you habitually opt out of the Open Register part of it to lessen junk mail.

 

[Janne]

No, my =daveO;1822020]You're making up points to suit your own arguement. No one will starve with gun control as it stands, no one needs an unlicenced gun to perform everyday tasks and this proposal has no relevance to gun control in the slightest. If you think full knife 'control' will happen then every single household in the UK would need a licence or similar for their kitchen equipment, every workshop would need one for their Stanley knives and chisels. The knives generally sold or traded on this forum may have niche appeal but, as the 'Zombie knife' legislation has shown, trying to ban a particular type of knife is not a simple process and needs good grounds for offering potential to threaten life and evidence that these knives are used to do that.[/QUOTE]

 

[Samon]

Unless you habitually opt out of the Open Register part of it to lessen junk mail.

Yep. I had to send a picture of my passport to bladesandbows cuz I refuse to vote. If this ban thing does come in I'll be as shocked as I will be outraged. Why is it we ear about murdering little scum bag kids and their evil knives, but nothing about their home lives? why aren't the parents of minors who commiy murder put on trial for being crap at their job??

 

[Robbi]

+ 1 spot on....good post Sir.

What is everyone getting so worked up about? There has been an age restriction on lots of products for years and it's a logical step for the authorities to enforce the restiction in on-line sales. No one is saying you can't have your knives just that the age restriction isn't being enforced as it should be. At a very basic level all this needs is for courier companies to ask to see ID before they'll release an age restricted parcel at your door. If they insist on collection from a physical premisis then surely collection from your local post office wouldn't be too taxing. Frankly I'm amazed that this kind of system isn't already in place.

 

[Robbi]

Yep. I had to send a picture of my passport to bladesandbows cuz I refuse to vote. If this ban thing does come in I'll be as shocked as I will be outraged. Why is it we ear about murdering little scum bag kids and their evil knives, but nothing about their home lives? why aren't the parents of minors who commiy murder put on trial for being crap at their job??

and you still got a knife !!

 

[Janne]

This thread is scarily borderline political!

Just a note: I am NOT advocating Anarchy. I like the state to trust me and my judgement of what is correct and what is not.

 

[FoxyRick]

Does anyone here really believe that these proposals will have a significant effect on violent crimes with sharp and pointy implements?

Or really believe that it will stop some teenage thug getting hold of a knife of some kind, probably stolen from Wilko if not his parents? If not a knife, a chisel, or anything else sharp and pointy.

If so, well, I had better not say what I think of that other than 'tosh!' All the proposals will do is further restrict us law-abiding people, which is exactly what those in power want to achieve.

Why are some of us so accepting of this, as if it has already happened and is somehow a good thing too? It's an outrage that our government thinks they can do this to us.

I worked with exactly the type of youth in question for ten years. Believe me, they will get hold of knives of some description just the same. The politicians and police know this. I once sat next to some youths discussing the then-current fad of cutting someone's femoral artery to punish them (I think they called it 'jacking') and how you could do it with a chisel or a cheap craft knife from Staples. Seriously!

As I think Janne is saying, (in my words) this is just another thin end of the wedge. Well, more like the middle of it now with knife legislation. I was there for all the firearms stuff too, over the years, and was disgusted with it.

The Post Office is not going to be interested in this. It's a private company with a poor track record as it is (no offence to posties, ours are fantastic). If the PO does take an interest, it will only be to see how much money they can scam us for. Import handling charges, anyone? On every knife you buy even from here? That's what it would amount to. I strongly object!

I won't be shocked if the ban does get implemented, although I will be outraged. I'm well aware of just how dire our leadership is. (better stop there before I get into politics).

We should be talking in terms of how to try to change this before it goes ahead, not how we will cope and how little it will (hopefully) effect some of us; until the next step in legislation that is.

 

[Robbi]

The Post Office is not going to be interested in this.

Argos already do it.......click and collect.

 

[FoxyRick]

I think it will be a little different if they are asked to do it for knives, and verify identity and age. After all, knives and those who use them are well known to be evil.

If it does go ahead, I hope I'm wrong. But I'm still not willing to accept that it will go ahead without a fight.

It's all still largely pointless. Gangs are not made up entirely of teenagers. They'll just get the over-18 thug to collect the knives. Like has always happened with alcohol and tobacco.

 

[Janne]

The worst is that the population is happy to have their freedoms restricted.
All in name of combating crime and violence.
I have always wondered: has gun crime gone down in UK since 1996?
Has less people been killed or damaged with a knife since 1996?

 

[daveO]

The worst is that the population is happy to have their freedoms restricted.
All in name of combating crime and violence.
I have always wondered: has gun crime gone down in UK since 1996?
Has less people been killed or damaged with a knife since 1996?

You should be asking 'have more knives been sold illegally to under 18s since 1996?'. That is the crime in question here and the answer is quite a significant increase.

Let me ask a question. You go into a shop and see some 12 year old boys trying to buy a litre of vodka. The person on the checkout says to them "are you 18" they say yes and he sells it to them with no further question. Do you clap him on the back and say "good on you mate. you know better than the government that 12 year old boys should be able to buy vodka if they want to". No you don't, you would probably report him. This is the exact same situation. To buy a knife on-line you just need to click a button that says "I am 18" and the majority of shops don't require further proof. The age restriction on buying knives is not a new law, it's not a restriction on freedom, it's just the government pulling their fingers out and making sure that the current law is being abided by. On-line shops are not currently showing due diligence in checking customers' ages and although this proposal will probably cause them some hassle it can only be their own fault. The alternative is that the government start prosecuting shops that sell to underage people and I'm sure they would rather have this solution than that.

 

[daveO]

The Post Office is not going to be interested in this. It's a private company with a poor track record as it is (no offence to posties, ours are fantastic). If the PO does take an interest, it will only be to see how much money they can scam us for. Import handling charges, anyone? On every knife you buy even from here? That's what it would amount to. I strongly object!

I won't be shocked if the ban does get implemented, although I will be outraged. I'm well aware of just how dire our leadership is. (better stop there before I get into politics).

Why wouldn't the post office by interested? They're losing contracts to courier companies all the time and this would be a perfect opportunity for them to make use of their network of physical premises. No extra cost required as they would get the delivery contracts and don't even have to deliver to your door. It's win win for them. Although please remember that I suggested the post office and it's not an actual government proposal so you can object all you want but no one is listening.

and what ban is being implemented? If you mean the ban on selling knives to under 18s then that happened in 2006 so your outrage and plans to get it changed before it's too late is already 11 years too late.

 

[OldOakKnives]

Unfortunately I think the difficulty we have is that apart from a few collectors, users and makers nobody else will care.

The government of the time will simply say 'if it saves one life it's worth it' and the vast majority will agree because it has no effect on them.

Another problem is other people involved in outdoor pursuits and country sports will think if it doesn't affect them why get involved. A bit like the handgun and semi-auto bans other firearms and shotgun users mostly didn't get involved because it didn't affect them directly.
I fear the worst I'm afraid.

 

[FoxyRick]

You should be asking 'have more knives been sold illegally to under 18s since 1996?'. That is the crime in question here and the answer is quite a significant increase.

Of course there have been... it wasn't a crime before then (at least as far as I recall, and I've just read the relevant parts of the 1996 offensive weapons bill which indicate the same). Oh what a surprise - create a new law criminalising something, and crime rates go up!

Let me ask a question. You go into a shop ..snip for brevity.. This is the exact same situation.

No it isn't, the proposal isn't anything to do with going into a shop.

To buy a knife on-line you just need to click a button that says "I am 18"

Not quite; a payment method is also needed. Which acceptable online payment methods are legally available to children? I don't know of any. So, the issue is one of preventing children from accessing whatever payment method is used, somewhere in the chain. That would be more useful than the proposals which only tackle knives and do nothing to stop the root ability to buy other stuff they shouldn't.

it's just the government pulling their fingers out and making sure that the current law is being abided by.

No it isn't; the government is not making sure the current laws are abided by. If they were, they would be targetting the shops breaking the law, not everyone else. The government is specifically creating new, more restrictive, laws that effect innocent people. It is a new limit to our freedom; I am at the moment free to have a knife delivered to my home, or send one to someone else's. That will be stopped. How is that not a restriction of freedom?

On-line shops are not currently showing due diligence in checking customers' ages and although this proposal will probably cause them some hassle it can only be their own fault.

Say that to Heinnie Haynes, or the large number of custom knife and tool makers in the UK. You are tarring responsible, diligent people with the same brush as the main online culprit, which should be tackled directly.

The alternative is that the government start prosecuting shops that sell to underage people and I'm sure they would rather have this solution than that.

The government absolutely should be prosecuting shops that sell to underage people. That's the point above that is not happening, and instead new legislation is being proposed that will not even solve the problem of youths obtaining knives.

Let's think about alcohol for a moment... many online suppliers exist who send deliveries directly to our homes. I know, I have most of mine delivered. From various places including the main culprit in all of this. The deliveries need signing for and the couriers specifically check the age of the recipient. Again, I know because one of the couriers I briefly chatted with told me they have to, that's how he knew it was alcohol in the box (he was asking if I had got something nice). So, it is trivial for online sellers to do the age thing for alcohol.

Why cannot the government proposals simply insist that the same procedure be followed for knives? (as it should be IMO). That would not in any way restrict our freedom and would answer the requirement of age checks using an already existing system. Cheap, as effective as the proposals would be, and simple to implement.

My answer to the above would verge too far into politics, so I'll shut up now.

Clearly I have very different principles on our freedom to some people. I'm not trying to insult you anyone, btw, I'm not saying you are wrong, just not like me. I am saying my views on freedom are that we should have it, and should not have it curtailed because someone else decides to act irresponsibly. I strongly believe that it is wrong to punish an innocent person by restricting their freedom, rather than effectively acting against the criminals themselves. And yet, in many aspects of my life, that's exactly what I have to endure. In more serious ways than this knife issue too, which is probably why I'm so annoyed by this. I would fight (and have) for the freedom of others not to be diminished even if it does not effect me, because that's the way I am.

P.s. I am trying to keep politics out of this. I think I'm just managing to.

 

[Klenchblaize]

The biggest fear should be any attempt to link demonstrable need to purchase the knife in question as this would not only pose challenges for many purchasers but add a crippling workload to makers and small retailers in the form of record keeping and verification.

K