Pretty disapointing and poor customer service IMHO. I've returned things to Victorinox and Gerber and they were fantastic, not a hint of legal protectionism. They should stand by their own products!
New knife advice sought please
- Thread starter ChrisW
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Pretty disapointing and poor customer service IMHO. I've returned things to Victorinox and Gerber and they were fantastic, not a hint of legal protectionism. They should stand by their own products!
I was a little surprised that they didn't want to know, but likewise I didn't push it either. However, there's no need to get into them about their customer service. Despite what seems like massed raised eyebrows, dropped jaws and exclamation of 'You broke an F1? #*&@!!!' the fact remains that I did break it and so I take responsibility for it.
Anyway, I'm looking at it now in a cup half full kind of way - I own one of the few broken F1's around. Lucky me.
Having said that though, after some serious research (kids: "Dad, you're looking at knives again. You're looking at knives a lot, aren't you?") I've ordered a Helle Temagami.
The reasons I chose one of these are 1 ) I think it looks great; 2) I've read good things about Helle knives; 3) Despite it being fairly new I've read and heard great things about this knife and 4) I've heard some fantastic stories about their customer service. I've been looking at a fuller picture this time.
Anyway, I'm looking at it now in a cup half full kind of way - I own one of the few broken F1's around. Lucky me.
Having said that though, after some serious research (kids: "Dad, you're looking at knives again. You're looking at knives a lot, aren't you?") I've ordered a Helle Temagami.
The reasons I chose one of these are 1 ) I think it looks great; 2) I've read good things about Helle knives; 3) Despite it being fairly new I've read and heard great things about this knife and 4) I've heard some fantastic stories about their customer service. I've been looking at a fuller picture this time.
Why on earth did that break? It implies that the tang is hardened - really, it should have bent first.
Maybe you should consider carrying a billhook?
Maybe you should consider carrying a billhook?
Excellent choice !
The Temagami is the easiest knife I have ever used for everything I've used it for - the design places the tip and main part of the belly of the edge right where it needs to be effortlessly. I have two of the first production run stainless models and I am about to order another in carbon - a firm fan of Helle knives and a huge fan of their Temagami
Ummm .... no........
Stainless steel doesn't take well at all to differential or selective hardening so the tangs of Fallkniven, Helle, Cold Steel and similar three layer laminated knives are fully hardened.
The F1 is constructed San Mai fashion with soft sides that sandwich a hard core to build toughness in. The entire blade (and tang) is hardened. Selectively hardening stainless usually ends in tears and broken blades since it introduces problems - soft tangs are the province of carbon steel blades.
This is why many companies invest large sums in producing three layer blades. Most are stainless and some are carbon but either way, the entire point to the three layer system is that the entire core is hardened throughout its length, usually to quite a high hardness, which is made possible by the supporting softer material at each side of the core.
Helle blades are constructed this way, as are Fallkniven and some Cold steel, among others.
Sometimes you might find a soft tang on a three layer blade with a carbon core, but not on stainless.
I tend to disagree with those who express astonishment that you broke the blade, I've handled many strong blades and I wouldn't say that the F1 is amongst the toughest of them. In fact it feels flimsy and lightweight compared to some. Knowing its construction I'd never dream of doing with it the things that you did. I'm really not very surprised that you broke it, nor am I surprised that the manufacturer was less than sympathetic. Kudos to you, by the way, for owning up.
The photos tell the story clearly. The tang was indeed cracked for quite some time before the blade broke. During that time rust formed in the crack. Unfortunately a lot of stainless steels are prone to this kind of corrosion, it's called 'crevice corrosion'. Rather counter-intuitively it's the result of too little oxygen reaching the surfaces of the stainless to form a hard, protective layer of chromium dioxide (which is what makes stainless steel stainless).
Rust (hydrated iron oxide), unfortunately, doesn't form a nice hard layer like chromium dioxide does, so it doesn't protect the steel surface and continues to form indefinitely. It's about one-sixth of the density of iron. That lower density means a much bigger volume for the same mass of material. That in turn means that when iron turns to rust in a small gap it fills up the gap and then some. This is why it's hard to free a rusty nut from a bolt. The pressures created in that small crack will be immense and gradually increasing. It will take less and less effort to fracture the tang, and eventually it will just break in two on its own.
Once the blade had cracked, short of keeping it in a vacuum there's really nothing you could have done to prevent the eventual calamity. It just happened sooner than it otherwise might have done because you were flexing the tang. I have a Kitchen Devil that my wife used for ages which failed in exactly the same way (although she wasn't using a baton on it. ) The main thing to be thankful for is that there was no injury.
It sounds like you've learned a great deal since you've bought the F1. I agree with you about thick blades with convex edges. Most of the time I use a multi-tool or a full flat of some kind, and a highly convexed edge like on the F1 feels a bit awkward to me. But it's horses for courses, as you're seeing. A convexed edge might feel like a sharpened chair leg when you're making feather sticks but in the field it will need less attention than something finer.
The photos tell the story clearly. The tang was indeed cracked for quite some time before the blade broke. During that time rust formed in the crack. Unfortunately a lot of stainless steels are prone to this kind of corrosion, it's called 'crevice corrosion'. Rather counter-intuitively it's the result of too little oxygen reaching the surfaces of the stainless to form a hard, protective layer of chromium dioxide (which is what makes stainless steel stainless).
Rust (hydrated iron oxide), unfortunately, doesn't form a nice hard layer like chromium dioxide does, so it doesn't protect the steel surface and continues to form indefinitely. It's about one-sixth of the density of iron. That lower density means a much bigger volume for the same mass of material. That in turn means that when iron turns to rust in a small gap it fills up the gap and then some. This is why it's hard to free a rusty nut from a bolt. The pressures created in that small crack will be immense and gradually increasing. It will take less and less effort to fracture the tang, and eventually it will just break in two on its own.
Once the blade had cracked, short of keeping it in a vacuum there's really nothing you could have done to prevent the eventual calamity. It just happened sooner than it otherwise might have done because you were flexing the tang. I have a Kitchen Devil that my wife used for ages which failed in exactly the same way (although she wasn't using a baton on it.
) The main thing to be thankful for is that there was no injury.It sounds like you've learned a great deal since you've bought the F1. I agree with you about thick blades with convex edges. Most of the time I use a multi-tool or a full flat of some kind, and a highly convexed edge like on the F1 feels a bit awkward to me. But it's horses for courses, as you're seeing. A convexed edge might feel like a sharpened chair leg when you're making feather sticks but in the field it will need less attention than something finer.
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Thanks for the info - so the tang would nearly always be hardened on SS knives.
Puts me off using one!
There's good reason to be wary of taking tools outside the envelope for which they're designed. But that applies to any tool, and it pays to be aware of the advantages and limitations of the materials and construction techniques, the tradeoffs made in the design, etc., and the likely result of departure from the area for which the tool was designed.
Bear in mind that the whole point of having the three layers in blades like the one discussed here is so that the outer, more flexible layers can protect the inner, harder (but as a result more brittle) layer from excessive strain. The inner layer takes the cutting edge and in theory at least it will do more cutting before it needs sharpening than would something softer. But given that the inner layer is more brittle it will be more susceptible to fracture (and possibly chipping on bone etc.) and it needs to be treated accordingly. You wouldn't make a feather stick with a razor blade, and you probably shouldn't use an F1 for splitting logs.
Some materials and constructions will take abuse more gracefully than others. I often abuse tools myself, so I'm not simply saying don't do it; but if you're going to abuse a tool, you need to ask yourself some questions. One obvious question is "will it slowly bend, or suddenly shatter?" Another is "what might happen if it does that while I'm using it?
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That second question is key IMHO - the likelihood of injury is a serious risk out in the woods if one of your sharps fails spectacularly and bites back.
Another question is, should I really be doing this if I have no fallback (ie, if this is my only cutting tool available).
Assuming you escape injury if a failure occurs, with what do you build your shelter, prepare your firewood and dinner, etc, etc, etc
Ask me again why I don't subscribe to batoning and why I give pack (or pocket) room to a mini hatchet...
I'm not precious about knives - they are tools - but I am rather attached to all of my limbs and I would rather remain in full possession of all of my fingers.
I have a small scar in the upper eyelid of my left eye where, many years ago, a knife shattered under strain (being used/abused by a close friend standing next to me) and the tip ended up lodged just above my eyeball. Scared the crap out of both of us, caused a medical issue on a five day exercise and came close to blinding me.
Once bitten...
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I have just broke my H1, battoning some wood.
Looked at the grain and the middle Vg10 part is very smooth but the 420J (i think) sides have mahusive grain.
I recon the heat needed for VG10 might be higher which caused the other steel to get bigger grain which is weak.
ChrisW is the middle layer of your broken tang nice and smooth where it broke and the outsided rough?
Looked at the grain and the middle Vg10 part is very smooth but the 420J (i think) sides have mahusive grain.
I recon the heat needed for VG10 might be higher which caused the other steel to get bigger grain which is weak.
ChrisW is the middle layer of your broken tang nice and smooth where it broke and the outsided rough?
These guys like abuse.
If you regrind the lower section of the blade quite fine you can actually use it for more delicate objectives..but it's mostlya hacking prybar.
If you regrind the lower section of the blade quite fine you can actually use it for more delicate objectives..but it's mostlya hacking prybar.
buy an Esee knife, they have a no fault warranty, and will replace it no matter what you subjected it to, or so I've been told.
At this rate we'll need a BCUK Helle Temagami owners club
I'd be interested in your thoughts on it once you've given it some mileage, and long and faithfully may it serve !
The Scandi grind on the Temagami works so well because the blade is a little thinner that the current norm, and it really makes all the difference. Best of luck with it
That looks like my Mora after I broke that at the moot last year. Looked just the same. I did mine in by battonng something that was wider than the length of the blade & it got a little tap where the blade meets the handle. Lesson learned & I bought a 12" froe after that. If I break that I will take up bowling...
