National Parks

[andyn]

I think that not asking for permission is the biggest mistake....Not only is it illegal but gives a bad reputation to everyone else when (and it probably will be a when rather than an if) you are caught.

JoshG, you could simply walk up to a farm house and ask I suppose.

 

[JoshG]

I think that not asking for permission is the biggest mistake....Not only is it illegal but gives a bad reputation to everyone else when (and it probably will be a when rather than an if) you are caught.

JoshG, you could simply walk up to a farm house and ask I suppose.

Yeah, great idea...

 

[SMARTY]

Go to the land owner and ask face to face. Its the best way. He can only say yes or no.

 

[arctic hobo]

Great answers guys... keep them coming.
Since I asked I'll try not to take part, except to add that if we had a weekend course + permit, what would tourists do?

 

[JoshG]

Go to the land owner and ask face to face. Its the best way. He can only say yes or no.

How can I even know if a person owns the land, and if they own land so huge, how will I even be able to find their house?
I mean I appreciate your ideas but most the places I want to wild camp are FC owned, so my first hurdle would be simply to find some woodland that was privately owned. How do I even begin to do that? I don't have my own transport, so I can't just go mooching around the country hoping to find a farmhouse attached to woodland.

 

[BirchBark]

Im all for the short course for anyone wishing to light fires or camp out in the woods. Its the only way to ensure our countryside is looked after and treated with the respect it deserves.

I would love to have an all access policy to our countryside for anyone with no need for courses, but unfortunatly we have to be realistice, there is a great percentage of vandals and unthoughtful people out there who would abuse the trust they would be given to light fires and camp in our countryside. Going out in the woods with the laws as it is now, you find litter everywhere, just think what would happen if there were no laws.

I think its unfair that the rest of us (trustworthy members of society) cannot go out and enjoy the coutryside to the max, camp, light fires etc, the only option would be a permit. This would also be needed for any tourists who wished to camp wild and set fires, they would just have to include a course into their holiday (the good thing is once they have done the course they could come back to the UK and enjoy the countryside again and again. License would be a lifetime permit, revoked for bad behaviour).

 

[P Wren]

The permit idea is a good one. But it is definitely not simple one. In fact this whole issue is very complicated.

The Forestry Commission and it's Agencies are Public Bodies - accountable to Ministers (DEFRA).As with any public body there needs to be accountability.
The problem with a permit system is that someone needs to run it, regulate it and inspect it.

Who would administer the registration system for Bushcrafters ?
Would the Forestry Commission act as Regulator ?
What sort of regulatory framework would be required to enable bushcraft activities to take place?
Would the already hard pressed rangers and officials of the Forestry Commission have to take on these duties on top of their existing responsibilities and if so, where would the financial resources come from ?
And finally the do existing bylaws/legislation need to be changed.

These are all tricky issues but I think there is a legitimate agenda for debate here.

There is no doubt that the subject of Bushcraft is growing in popularity. BushcraftUK seems to be a thoroughly credible and responsible organisation which could do much to champion the cause of Bushcraft in the right circles. If you can engage positively with the relevant organisations and explain how bushcrafters differ from campers with caravans, ramblers and travelers, then I'm sure that these organisations would begin to respond to the needs of our community. One of the firsts steps is to ensure that the Forestry Commission, its Agencies and Ministers understand the needs of Bushcrafters/Campers/Backwoodsmen or whatever we think of ourselves as.

You just need to make sure you do it in the right way.

Protesting and illegal camping is not the right way to go about it. Well not and get positive results anyway.

As a relative newbie here, who speaks for BushcraftUK.com as an organisation ?

P

 

[Yohny]

Interesting topic about fire permits. If this link (& the sub-links attached) works, you might be interested to read how fire permits work in the US, specifically in NC. Bit heavy on the words, but I think a similar scheme could work over here, either at county level, or District Council level. There is nothing better than sitting by a fire, day or night, any season. Gets you back to basics. Until I joined this forum, I honestly didn't realise fires were illegal without permission.

http://www.dfr.state.nc.us/burn_permit/burn_intro.htm

 

[SMARTY]

Troops
try this site:www.forestry.gov.uk. It will give you contacts and phone Nos for areas in UK. The way I find land owners is look at map, find a wood, find the nearest farm and go and ask. If they are not the owners they will probably know who is.

 

[running bare]

forgive me if im wrong but is wild camping not called "trespass" in which case is it still not english law that if you are approached for trespassing by the landowner and you offer him/her a shilling ( 10p to you young 'uns ) that you cannot be charged with trespass??? or has that law been revoked???

tom

 

[Emma]

the country code, poisonous plants, threatened species, etc., used to be taught in schools, aren't they nowadays?
If not, *why*not?

Not when I went through school. (I'm 20.) I don't know why not.

I know I've mentioned this before, but my mum has had some incredibly negative dealings with dog-walkers in the field she rents for horses. The dog-walkers made a fuss when she electric fenced a part of the field that they had absolutely no access rights to, because they liked walking around the field instead of following the footpath. (The footpath is in an excellent condition btw, better than their perimeter path.) Their unhappiness escalated to them switching off the electric fence, taking it down, leaving it unravelled on the ground, kicking (and bending) fence posts (which aren't exactly cheap), vandalising our property and pouring superglue into some of our padlocks. Many of them use the field as a dogs toilet. This has led to, amongst other things, the ponies escaping from the fence on many occasions, resulting in lamenitis, a painful illness caused by eating to much rich grass.

And these people are middle-class middle-aged people, who are normally reasonable and open-minded.
Presumably they were all taught the country code at school?

I'm not suggesting everyone is like these people. But the experiences my mum has had, the lengths she's gone to try and compromise, to explain to people what and why she's doing things, and the abuse she's had in return, conspire to make me think that until a considerably higher percentage of English people follow the country code, and maybe even understand why they should follow the country code, no more freedom should be given to them. I hate the conclusion, because it means that the rest of us can't wander off and camp. But I'd rather not have these people vandalising a farmer's property because he is merely using his land!


Also, to the point made that as the FC are government-owned, we all own FC land - try explaining that logic to MI5, MI6, and the military.

 

[Fluxus]

Also, to the point made that as the FC are government-owned, we all own FC land - try explaining that logic to MI5, MI6, and the military.

................here we go again!

 

[Emma]

................here we go again!

Sorry Fluxus, that was actually meant as a joke - hence the "" smiley. Didn't mean to cause offence. If it you like I'll edit that bit out of my post...

 

[Ed]

and the abuse she's had in return, conspire to make me think that until a considerably higher percentage of English people follow the country code, and maybe even understand why they should follow the country code, no more freedom should be given to them

I have to agree with you there Emma. Many people are stating they would like to see the forestry open to all and quote places such as scotland where you can do it, but people forget to look at the bigger picture..... that of the whole UK.

In the south wales valleys where I live, forest fires are a big problem. Every year whole mountainsides are burnt down due to uncontrolled fire..... In the past 10 years there have been deaths not just of the general public but also those brave firefighters that try and help the situation. Every year sheep and other livestock are lost in the fires causing untold misery to the farmers and familys due to loss of income, villages are evacutaed and property destroyed, even my classes get cancelled so i can't work () ...... and the total cost in damages runs to a few million every year....

and this is with a complete ban on camping and fires...... I can just imagine the problems if the forestry was opened up to the general public for camping and fires.

Ed

 

[P Wren]

In densely populated areas of the country especially in England, what forests we do have, would really be put at risk if people camped freely within them and had open fires.

They may seem large on a map, but places like Epping Forest, the New Forest and the Ashdown forest, (my nearest forests) are all actually quite small in the greater scheme of things.

The sad truth is that as much as we would like there to be, there just simply isn't any wilderness left in England. The problem facing those that manage our Forests is that if all of a sudden these areas were full of people camping out 'Bushcraft Style', the less responsible campers would begin to have a negative effect on the forests. It would only take a few uncontrolled fires to do real damage to the environment and the cause of Bushcraft.

A positive way forward for the 'Bushcrafting community' would be to establish a very firm identity of itself and then to engage positively with the relevant authorities, Forestry Commission, DEFRA, Local Authorities, preservation and conservation organisations and other outdoor organisations, to see if special camp sites or areas could be set up or made available to those wanting to practice specifically 'Bushcraft style' camping.

Would Bushcrafters be happy if the Forestry Commission and it's agencies to set aside areas in suitable forests, perhaps only accessible by foot, which 'Bushcrafters' could use ? These areas could be planted or already be populated with trees that could be used with hammocks, provide the material for debris shelters and be suitable for small fires.

Part of the difficulty though would be to make sure that the relevant authorities appreciate the subtle differences between those wishing to practice Bushcraft Style camping and to those who use tents and caravans etc.

I'm sure the 'Government' and all its agencies are well aware of organisations such as the Ramblers Association, the Caravan Association and other outdoorsy type groups. But I suspect that Bushcraft is a bit of an amorphous concept to them.

I suspect that significant progress could be made if the Bushcraft Community were to adopt some sort of Code, similar to the Countryside Code, which has been discuused here and which is well published and easily accessible on the web and through official publications http://www.countrysideaccess.gov.uk/ .


I have started a new thread to capture views in one place entitled " What would a ' Bushcraft Code' for the United Kingdom include ? " http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?p=115415#post115415

 

[Povarian]

a shilling ( 10p to you young 'uns ) that

A fake old timer or gone truely senior?

To all them young 'uns, a shilling or "bob" was replaced with the 5p coin. The 10p replaced the 2 shilling coin or "florin", and the sixpence and half-crown ceased to be.

What no smiley with a zimmer frame?

 

[running bare]

A fake old timer or gone truely senior?

To all them young 'uns, a shilling or "bob" was replaced with the 5p coin. The 10p replaced the 2 shilling coin or "florin", and the sixpence and half-crown ceased to be.

What no smiley with a zimmer frame?

hi povarian , sorry for my mistake at 45 senile dementia is creeping up on me you are right of course it is 5p,what is it now 30 years since we decimalised? can you remember ever hearing that trespass rule?im sure i remember it. but then again if i couldnt remember 5p being a shilling instead of 10p then i could and probably am totally wrong!!!!!would be interesting to know if any legal eagles out there can confirm or dispel my statement for the sake of others.

either way i deserve this

 

[Toddy]

Not when I went through school. (I'm 20.) I don't know why not.


My sons are 26 and 24 and it was taught to them in school. Different areas...? maybe just that in Scotland it's so much easier for us to be in the country? I asked my 10 year old neighbour about this today, he could rhyme it off for me, seems it's still considered relevant/important here....but then he expects to be able to walk wherever he chooses, "Provided I don't do any damage and close gates and put out fires properly".

Part of the Forestry Commission's brief is to provide access for leisure, recreation and education.....it can't be beyond mortal wit to engage in productive dialogue with the local FC managers to become involved in some form of access that is relevant to bushcraft. If nothing else you become aware of the forestry events that are available within your area.

It occurs to me that your mothers troubles could be eased if she had a stile fitted. This would 'permit' access but limit damage and still keep the ponies safely within their field. Awkward access instead of *NO* access is more likely to be shrugged off without vandalism.
Out and out denial, even when within rights and with explanations & reasons, seems to get backs up anywhere.

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[P Wren]

The Countryside Code was taught to me as a Cub Scout and at Primary School.

Part of the Forestry Commission's brief is to provide access for leisure, recreation and education.....it can't be beyond mortal wit to engage in productive dialogue with the local FC managers to become involved in some form of access that is relevant to bushcraft. If nothing else you become aware of the forestry events that are available within your area.

I entirely agree with you here, which is why I started the thread entitled What would a 'Bushcraft Code' for the United Kingdom include? http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=8537 to try and expand on the points raised in this thread and the one entitled "You are not alone...".

I wanted to generate debate to see what distinguishs Bushcraft from other forms of outdoor activities which are covered in the countryside code and perhaps find a way of trying to raise awareness of the needs of UK Bushcrafters in with the relevant authorities - who I believe are more than willing to engage with the communities and groups that they serve. But it appears that Bushcraft means a great deal to different people who practice it and there does not seem to be much consensus on the issue or on what Bushcrafters may want.

PW

 

[Emma]

My sons are 26 and 24 and it was taught to them in school. Different areas...?

Guess so. We're in countryside here too though, from my secondary school I could be in a field within two minutes, and on the downs in ten.

seems it's still considered relevant/important here...

That's the general impression I've got from the few Scots I know. Wish it was still considered important down here!

It occurs to me that your mothers troubles could be eased if she had a stile fitted. This would 'permit' access but limit damage and still keep the ponies safely within their field. Awkward access instead of *NO* access is more likely to be shrugged off without vandalism.

When mum first had the field, there were stiles at both ends of the field, for access to the official footpath. Since then one of the stiles has been replaced with a kissing gate. Access to the official footpath is no problem, and as I said, the proper footpath is in considerably better condition than the 'unofficial' perimeter path that these dog-walkers like using - it is the electric fence (which is not blocking the official footpath, only their 'unofficial' path) that they take down and damage rather than the field perimeter fence. She can't just put a stile in the electric fencing because she keeps moving the electric fence so as to avoid over-grazing the field... And then, if we were to allow people access to the ponies, there would probably be even more uncontrolled dogs chasing them (yes, we know that some of the dogs do this, we've seen them) and that could lead to all sorts of things, all of them bad. And two of mum's ponies are only a year old, so letting people in with them would be irresponsible.