Name of the simplest knot

[Seagull]

A timber hitch gives us another knot that I can see being used. If a (very pliant) withy is taken around a bundle of sticks and then formed into a timber hitch, and, if the loose end is then tightened to tighten up the bundle, then the loose end can be tucked under itself several times to create a timber hitch loop on each side.

In use as a Timber hitch, the serpentine tail of the dead end just gives a friction grip on the dod of timber being hauled. The haul is assisted and taken by means of a half hitch placed some distance apart , in the line of haul, from the spot where the Timber Hitch was placed. Thats how it works as a timber hitch. Its a two-part assembly.
But , when you refer to hauling tight the "loose"end, I believe that if you try this on something of solid substance, then you will find that, when tensioned, it is just not possible to tuck that loose end in the way you describe....I seem to recall a very long drawn out and tedious thread on the IGKT site some years back, about this same misapprehension.....I have to say that , in following the convolutions involved, my reading spectacles went to sleep of their own accord long before the end and so I dunno just what conclusions were made, if any were made. It was around this time I decided that a venture into stamp collecting offered the involvement of many more brain cells.

But, do try out your ideas, with various materials and see how it develops..I feel sure that you will eventually settle on a binding method much more efficient than the method you describe.
Regards All
Ceeg
Another footnote: just think of the Timber hitch as being a way of of stoppering the idle end of a half hitch...its that half hitch that expidites the hauling force

 

[Deleted member 56522]

Not sure if I am understanding your explanation as this is a timber hitch.

If you look at the drawing below, where the loop is flat against the log (not lifted as your drawing shows), then we see the end is tucked under the rope three times. My simple knot was to have only one tuck.

The other "knot" is where the free end (shown going to the right) is then tucked under the rope (shown to top) like the end shown to the bottom

Just to explain my interest in really simple "knots": I'm trying to work out what kinds of behaviour might have accidentally led our "Chimp like" ancestors tying knots. And, it is a chicken and egg problem, because there is no need for rope, before there are knots, and there is no need for knots before there are ropes ... and it's quite clear chimps don't need ropes or knots.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

But , when you refer to hauling tight the "loose"end, I believe that if you try this on something of solid substance, then you will find that, when tensioned, it is just not possible to tuck that loose end in the way you describe

As you rightly say a timber hitch is normally used with a half hitch. Yes, it wouldn't be sensible to do what i suggest on a log ... it would be difficult to tie the end in, and a simple knot needs some tension else it can fall apart. That's why I suggested it being used to compress a bundle ... it's always possible to find a hole in a bundle to tuck the end under.

 

[Seagull]

As you rightly say a timber hitch is normally used with a half hitch. Yes, it wouldn't be sensible to do what i suggest on a log ... it would be difficult to tie the end in, and a simple knot needs some tension else it can fall apart. That's why I suggested it being used to compress a bundle ... it's always possible to find a hole in a bundle to tuck the end under.

I think , as regards tightening up the hauling part, you will find great difficulty in making the turns that are a necessary part of your suggestions....

You will also find that ,should you allow a little slack to permit the last turn and then begin to firm-up that slack, what happens is that one side of the turns will wrap itself tighter by a half turn or more... at the expense of UN winding the fastening turn. if you follow through an experimental testing in this manner, you will find that all you're left with is a super tightened loop with a completely free end emerging from it.

I'm pretty sure that the early forms of humanity, were PDQ to understand that this particular sequence was going to be a practical "non-starter" and dumped the idea, deciding, instead, to invent something better...
IMMIC, I believe the oldest ,intact actual Knot discovered, was a Sheet Bend dated from 5000bc.
It was part of a fishing net and was found on Karelia Isthmus. Experimentation with Knots continues to be a topic for Exploration and Development and, lots of Folk have discovered that their newly found creation has been noted elsewhere...but that shouldn't be a discouragement, for its just confirmation that We of this Time have very much in common with those of the Past.

So, keep Tying and Trying
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Deleted member 56522]

You will also find that ,should you allow a little slack to permit the last turn and then begin to firm-up that slack, what happens is that one side of the turns will wrap itself tighter by a half turn or more... at the expense of UN winding the fastening turn.

I was going to agree ... because yes if they are both twisted the same way ... one side will tend to cause the other to untwist .... and then I pulled an old sponge out the bin and used a bit of rope ... and it works remarkably well, without untwisting. I wouldn't bet my life on it by any means, but if I needed a quick way to tie a bunch of sticks together for a short carry and only had a short withy, it could work

I'm pretty sure that the early forms of humanity, were PDQ to understand that this particular sequence was going to be a practical "non-starter" and dumped the idea, deciding, instead, to invent something better...
IMMIC, I believe the oldest ,intact actual Knot discovered, was a Sheet Bend dated from 5000bc.
It was part of a fishing net and was found on Karelia Isthmus. Experimentation with Knots continues to be a topic for Exploration and Development and, lots of Folk have discovered that their newly found creation has been noted elsewhere...but that shouldn't be a discouragement, for its just confirmation that We of this Time have very much in common with those of the Past.

I'm trying an evolutionary approach to explaining technology development, which means everything has to be explained by "accident" and not someone's "bright idea". Which means something like tying a knot has be the consequence of a series of beneficial accidental combination of already established behaviours. No "Eureka" moments.

Thanks for the info on the earliest knot ... the really annoying thing, is that there's a video online of an Orangutan tying knots, so humanity has had the ability to tie knots since before the last common ancestor with apes so knotting could have been invented any time between 7million BC and 5000BC

 

[Wander]

I was at school with someone called Paul Knot.
His dad was a doctor, his mum a teacher, and his older sister was in the top band at school.
Poor old Paul couldn't even tie his own shoelaces.
I'd say he was the simplest Knot.

 

[Seagull]

For the OP, there's a correction needed for that first intact knot..it was 9000 years ago.
That cordage was in use in the earlies, is evidenced by a few discoveries in the modern age...pierced needles- China ...drilled beads Austria dated 300000 ago.
Obviously the thread for these things have long perished.

For a modern source of Early Mans use and knowledge of Knots, do look up the work of Cyrus Lawrence Day. It is said that when the Chinese beads supported his pet theory's by being dated at 200000 years old, he congratulated himself by purchasing yet another new hat for his collection. Who knows, perhaps he was a Bushcrafter too.
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Deleted member 56522]

For the OP, there's a correction needed for that first intact knot..it was 9000 years ago.
That cordage was in use in the earlies, is evidenced by a few discoveries in the modern age...pierced needles- China ...drilled beads Austria dated 300000 ago.
Obviously the thread for these things have long perished.

I've got a complaint ... it said "view thread" ... and it was still perished!

For a modern source of Early Mans use and knowledge of Knots, do look up the work of Cyrus Lawrence Day. It is said that when the Chinese beads supported his pet theory's by being dated at 200000 years old, he congratulated himself by purchasing yet another new hat for his collection. Who knows, perhaps he was a Bushcrafter too.
Regards All
Ceeg

There's an interesting paper comparing Chimp technology with that of the earliest known accounts of Tasmanians, and the author (McGrew) makes the point that Chimpanzees had their own versions of each bit of technology - so it's more evolution than "Eureka". I understand it didn't go down well with some people at the time it was written, because people were still trying to claim there was something unique about humans. But he did miss out a few things like beads and fire.

And, I might have to do the same as I've got absolutely no idea why beads started being worn ... but look at early pictures of natives, and they all seem to have some kind of adornment. Perhaps they should have named us "Homo Beadius"!

 

[Minotaur]

For the OP, there's a correction needed for that first intact knot..it was 9000 years ago.
That cordage was in use in the earlies, is evidenced by a few discoveries in the modern age...pierced needles- China ...drilled beads Austria dated 300000 ago.
Obviously the thread for these things have long perished.

Not being picky or anything however that does not prove the existence of a knot as a needle does not lead to a knot nor does a bead. If you learn to hand sew the way Victorians and earlier did they do not knot at all. Also what if they are sewing with Leather same applies. I am really curious to know now if they can tell the difference in wear patterns on items.
New candidate for earliest knot 12,000 years ago in Israel.
Might be a clove hitch which is what was on a hook in Denmark 2,000 years later.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

Not being picky or anything however that does not prove the existence of a knot as a needle does not lead to a knot nor does a bead. If you learn to hand sew the way Victorians and earlier did they do not knot at all. Also what if they are sewing with Leather same applies. I am really curious to know now if they can tell the difference in wear patterns on items.
New candidate for earliest knot 12,000 years ago in Israel.
Might be a clove hitch which is what was on a hook in Denmark 2,000 years later.

Nice find! At first I thought the hook was metal, but it says it's bone. The line is also interesting ... although reading the text, they don't talk about finding intact line, only "plant residue".

 

[TLM]

There is a fishing or "sealing" net found in Finland that is 10400 years old, it uses a knot that is still in use in hand made nets.

 

[Seagull]

There is a fishing or "sealing" net found in Finland that is 10400 years old, it uses a knot that is still in use in hand made nets.

You know what ...I think that this may just be the same thing I believed was quoted as 9000 years on discovery. ..for the Sheet bend and its Double are still used in net making
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Seagull]

Not being picky or anything however that does not prove the existence of a knot as a needle does not lead to a knot nor does a bead. If you learn to hand sew the way Victorians and earlier did they do not knot at all. Also what if they are sewing with Leather same applies. I am really curious to know now if they can tell the difference in wear patterns on items.
New candidate for earliest knot 12,000 years ago in Israel.
Might be a clove hitch which is what was on a hook in Denmark 2,000 years later.

Maybe let go of the needles as being a bridge too far to make the assumption that the obvious usage of same would infer a knowledge of cord work beyond just the ability to sew.
As far as I remember, Day took the dating of the beads as similar , I mean, just look at a bead...how do you stop it from falling off the string. Is it not logical to reasonably assume that some form of knot was used for the purpose...rather than, just say, jam the gap with a splinter of wood or bone.

As it happens, I did ,in fact, learn to sew canvas when barely reached my teens. There were no knots used in the process, except when roping a sail...(if you want to know, ask) Perhaps then, I was taught a manual method that was fit for sailmaking and repair of same..as opposed to other obvious , specific uses .

One comment for the OP...about what was the thing that lead to wearing beads the first place....perhaps a developing sense of self? interesting though.
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Deleted member 56522]

One comment for the OP...about what was the thing that lead to wearing beads the first place....perhaps a developing sense of self? interesting though.
Regards All
Ceeg

There's a theory that Women's breasts are supposed to mimic the buttocks ... I'm sure beads could be fitted into that theory somehow ....

But more seriously, I suspect it's a primitive form of money which arises when societies become too complex to keep account of who "owes" what.

 

[Minotaur]

Maybe let go of the needles as being a bridge too far to make the assumption that the obvious usage of same would infer a knowledge of cord work beyond just the ability to sew.
As far as I remember, Day took the dating of the beads as similar , I mean, just look at a bead...how do you stop it from falling off the string. Is it not logical to reasonably assume that some form of knot was used for the purpose...rather than, just say, jam the gap with a splinter of wood or bone.

Needles can be used for leather in leather which is just proof of a sharp edge. They could have been sewing beads to leather which still does not prove knots which is sort of my point.

As it happens, I did ,in fact, learn to sew canvas when barely reached my teens. There were no knots used in the process, except when roping a sail...(if you want to know, ask) Perhaps then, I was taught a manual method that was fit for sailmaking and repair of same..as opposed to other obvious , specific uses .

Would sail sewing be more like working in leather as it a heavier fabric?

One comment for the OP...about what was the thing that lead to wearing beads the first place....perhaps a developing sense of self? interesting though.
Regards All
Ceeg

Memory Code by Dr Lynne Kelly actual raises an interesting point that it might be for memory.

 

[Seagull]

Needles can be used for leather in leather which is just proof of a sharp edge. They could have been sewing beads to leather which still does not prove knots which is sort of my point.

I'm not altogether clear on what this means about needles being a proof of a sharp edge and I'm unclear about the bit about sewing beads to leather not proof of knots.
But there again, it seems I am in the throes of one of those disconcerting days that are getting too frequent

Would sail sewing be more like working in leather as it a heavier fabric?

The techniques really have a commonality of just needle, thread and material.
They differ in that the entry and taking of a stitch ,in canvas sewing, is initially made by the sharp point. After which, the needle profile changes to a blunt triangular shape that shoulders apart the warp and weft, without cutting the fibres, thereafter the shortest part of the needle becomes a round profile of a smaller diameter than the measure of the needles triangular shape.
The cunning reason for this, is that the needle form as Ive described, makes a space for the threads to go through. All proper hand sewing of canvas, is done with at least a doubled thread. Some tasks require up to four or even six threads, for extreme strength.... To have this sort of versatility , is the reason why sail needles, of the latter day type, are a great deal more robust than are to be found today and they all had extremely elongated eyes...allowing the threads to sit atop one another.
Though this sort of heavy work can be done with a strong shoulder pressure, it is usual to deploy a pricker to start each stitch. Shoulder alone, is OK for up to 21 ounce canvas, but it can be painful if for any length of time.
The method of taking effective and regular stitches, the prep and layout, tensioning of material, takes years to really perfect and to grow into and develop the physical dexterity needed. So, I can't see this being easier than tackling leather because of the difference of materials.

On the other hand it,s comparatively easy to learn the swing and rhythm of holding two saddle needles and the awl and progressing along a delineated furrow, letting the awl tip feel for the next stitch mark. Push with the awl and follow quickly , a twist of the wrist places the needle, pull it through with the crossed needle there's half the stitch done...and blah blah blah...an absolute doddle compared with canvas...though I admit that it only appears ,to myself, to be so...because of my experience with canvas these many donks of years

Memory Code by Dr Lynne Kelly actual raises an interesting point that it might be for memory.

Wayyyy above me or my interests or even what's left of my memory ... but is she any good at "over-two" continuous crowning", I wonder. Thanks all the same.
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Minotaur]

I'm not altogether clear on what this means about needles being a proof of a sharp edge and I'm unclear about the bit about sewing beads to leather not proof of knots.
But there again, it seems I am in the throes of one of those disconcerting days that are getting too frequent

???
You sew leather with leather so to make the thread all you need is a sharp edge and you thread the beads on as you sew the leather.

The techniques really have a commonality of just needle, thread and material.
They differ in that the entry and taking of a stitch ,in canvas sewing, is initially made by the sharp point. After which, the needle profile changes to a blunt triangular shape that shoulders apart the warp and weft, without cutting the fibres, thereafter the shortest part of the needle becomes a round profile of a smaller diameter than the measure of the needles triangular shape.
The cunning reason for this, is that the needle form as Ive described, makes a space for the threads to go through. All proper hand sewing of canvas, is done with at least a doubled thread. Some tasks require up to four or even six threads, for extreme strength.... To have this sort of versatility , is the reason why sail needles, of the latter day type, are a great deal more robust than are to be found today and they all had extremely elongated eyes...allowing the threads to sit atop one another.
Though this sort of heavy work can be done with a strong shoulder pressure, it is usual to deploy a pricker to start each stitch. Shoulder alone, is OK for up to 21 ounce canvas, but it can be painful if for any length of time.
The method of taking effective and regular stitches, the prep and layout, tensioning of material, takes years to really perfect and to grow into and develop the physical dexterity needed. So, I can't see this being easier than tackling leather because of the difference of materials.

Sort of proves my point. There is heavy sewing, light fabric hand sewing and machine made thread light fabric hand sewing.

On the other hand it,s comparatively easy to learn the swing and rhythm of holding two saddle needles and the awl and progressing along a delineated furrow, letting the awl tip feel for the next stitch mark. Push with the awl and follow quickly , a twist of the wrist places the needle, pull it through with the crossed needle there's half the stitch done...and blah blah blah...an absolute doddle compared with canvas...though I admit that it only appears ,to myself, to be so...because of my experience with canvas these many donks of years

Saddle sewing is on the list however fabric hand sewing is really useful and higher up the queue.

Wayyyy above me or my interests or even what's left of my memory ... but is she any good at "over-two" continuous crowning", I wonder. Thanks all the same.

???
It is a myth that memory declines with age. People just notice it more...

 

[Seagull]

It is a myth that memory declines with age. People just notice it more...

You don't say!? .. in case of it being true then, congratulations are in order, you really ought to disseminate this gem as the true state of affairs.
There will be countless millions of older folk that will, doubtless , be able to reassure themselves about, their own state of mind....If they can remember to do so.
I presume I'm supposed to have found this revelation be most enervating.

Do take my word I shall ,at times, look forward to the time when I am able to trust in the roseate situation of being able to believe that the odd, irksome spell of forgetfulness isn't actually happening.
On the other hand, If that time does happen in the future , I will have probably already forgotten all about it and most everything else.

Regards All
Ceeg

And, just In case I forgot already\
Regards All
Ceeg

 

[Minotaur]

It is called the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon. You pay attention to something so you notice it more often. We pay attention to what we take note of.

 

[Deleted member 56522]

You don't say!? .. in case of it being true then, congratulations are in order, you really ought to disseminate this gem as the true state of affairs.

When you're 80 you have twice as much to remember as someone who is 40 and four times as much to remember as someone who is 20, and eight times as much to remember as someone who is 10. Is it surprising that people who are older forget more?