Mugged on a hike

[mrcharly]

Self defense or the defense of others is predicated (legally here) on the belief that you or the third party is at danger. The legality of using deadly force for said defense is predicated on the belief that the attacker has the ability and intent to kill or do great bodily harm. Notice I said the "belief." It's only necessary to prove that you acted as any rational person would in coming to that belief. The active display of a deadly weapon (in this case the knife) is more than enough for a rational person to believe he's in such danger (just likje the various police academies teach and just like the courts consistently rule)

The UK does not permit the carrying of *anything* for the purpose of self defense.

We have different laws and a different culture.

I don't think this forum is an appropriate place for you to further this discussion and I can't see anything good coming from doing so.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Nephilim
My apologies and my sympathys once more.
Lets keep the thread on its original course not into the "political" as itd be a pity to have to lock it

 

[British Red]

It's their choice, muggers do not set the rules of retaliation. Sadly we have a culture in the UK of not punishing assailants, we need to reduce these crimes by having a suitable deterrent e.g. 12 years minimum with no parole.

Well said - it is also important to reflect that the muggers threatened the use of deadly force here and that any response including using actual deadly force would be reasonable under British law. If one has reasonable belief their life is in immediate danger they may protect themselves by any means possible. It happened that the OP was not hurt and for that we are all grateful. Surrendering to agression is not always the best course, but on this occasion it seems to have been and for that we are all relieved. I do agree though with Imagedude that a long custodial sentence is definitely in order.

 

[Dave]

When I was a kid, if someone pulled a knife on a policeman in the UK he would not have been shot.
When they finally subdues him, he would probably have got the living **** kicked out of him in the back of the black maria, and in the cells.
But these days you open a youtube video, someone pulls out a penknife and he's shot dead.
Nuts.

Its scary because, one of the main reasons the death penalty was banned in this country was because it was mathematically impossible to confirm proof of the killer. It still is. Even with DNA. And we now know a number of people who were executed by the state were innocent.
Yet this shoot to kill policy, is almost like a backdoor re-introduction, of the state being able to kill innocent people.
A man brandishing a knife, is innocent until he does something with that knife.

Its all becoming too american. And I can understand it when the americans say they would not want to live in a country where the government is armed to the teeth, but the population cannot bear arms.

When a high school shooting takes place, they try to take the guns away from everyone who was innocent of the crime. That doesnt make sense. Greater gun control, banned autos etc would be a good idea though.

I've seen a number of videos of cops shooting people dead, who were just acting too rashly and trigger happy. Mainly in the states.

 

[Man of Tanith]

Nephilim
My apologies and my sympathys once more.
Lets keep the thread on its original course not into the "political" as itd be a pity to have to lock it

Cough * politics* cough

 

[Laurentius]

I have been in two situations you could call muggings, in the first it was not I but my mum who was robbed, she was sitting in her wheelchair looking in a shopwindow when some scrote just grabbed her handbag. "Larry" she yelled "He has taken my bag" Without thinking I took off after him yelling at him to "Drop the ******g bag" He did, but he was never caught because I picked it up and returned it to my mum.

The second occasion was when I was on my own one evening and a guy demanded my wallet from me. He did not pull a knife or anything on me, but I was somewhat concerned lest he might be hiding one. I did not give up my wallet however, I yelled at him as loudly as I could, hoping to attract some attention from somewhere. I kept on yelling at him until he walked off. I didn't want to give up my wallet but I did not really want to fight over it either.

Neither of these situations would be anything like Nephelim's caught unawares at a disadvantage and outnumbered, to have done anything other than surrender the goods would have been reckless and I don't think there are any of us who would have been able to do anything in that situation either.

Yes I believe it is true that muggers are cowards, but that precise lack of moral fibre is not going to stop them cutting you up if you give them trouble is it? A gang is always more unpredictable than a single mugger, a mugger on his own might turn tail and run if you confront him, because his mates will not see that and he will not lose face.

 

[Dave]

Then last time i was mugged, i was a bit tipsy, and tried to pull out some money from my wallet. I drooped some of it on the floor, and the guy in front of me, picked up a twenty note. Give it back I asked him three times. He just looked at me and put it in his pocket, so i punched him the head five times.

Now in fantasy world, if he pulled a knife, and I had a gun pointed at him, theres no way I would have shot him in the chest. NO WAY.

 

[dewi]

Both occasions it happened to me, I was at a cashpoint.

The first was two lads demanding I draw money out for them while a queue of people stood behind me as if nothing was happening. I politely explained to one of them that he wasn't getting any money, and his mate decided to run away half way through my persuasive explanation. I couldn't get over the fact that nobody in the queue intervened, they just looked at their feet or anywhere other than what was happening right in front of them.

Second occasion people laugh at, but it wasn't funny at the time. I'd just been to the cashpoint, turned a corner and a fella had his hand in his pocket with something prodding out. He demanded my wallet. I asked him if he was going to prod me to death. He screamed it was a gun. I told him it was his finger, then walked away into a busy street. If it was a gun, it was a very slim one... and it did shake me up a bit and I was angry for a while, same as the first time it happened.

Hasten to add that my wife thinks I'm a complete idiot for not handing over my wallet on both occasions, and given the situations, maybe that would have been more sensible. I was just very lucky.

 

[Stevie777]

I once ran to the aid of a guy who was being beaten by three young thugs. Three guys against one...Come on then big men, i said, Lets see if you can take on a guy my size i hollered.

They kicked the living crap out of me and the guy i was defending made clean his escape..

 

[Laurentius]

I once ran to the aid of a guy who was being beaten by three young thugs. Three guys against one...Come on then big men, i said, Lets see if you can take on a guy my size i hollered.

They kicked the living crap out of me and the guy i was defending made clean his escape..

Been there done that and got the stitches in my head to prove it. I was emboldened by the drink to take on a gang of bikers who were kicking hell out of a guy on the floor during a pub fight. Everyone else was just standing by and letting it happen. Well predictably they lost interest in the original victim as they had a new one to take on.

 

[Laurentius]

The kind of mugger I most fear is the intelligent one, the one who will leave your wallet but take your car and house keys, drive off in your car and empty your house of valuables before you can even report it. Fortunately I do not think that the majority of muggers are very intelligent.

 

[Stevie777]

Been there done that and got the stitches in my head to prove it. I was emboldened by the drink to take on a gang of bikers who were kicking hell out of a guy on the floor during a pub fight. Everyone else was just standing by and letting it happen. Well predictably they lost interest in the original victim as they had a new one to take on.

I was a bit bladdered myself. Never felt the broken ribs until i tried to get out of bed in the morning. i had the imprint of one guys laces on my skin. I dont care if you are a black belt in whatever, When you are out numbered the chances are you are going down.

 

[Caerleon]

I had a bad experience a few years ago - my wife and I were walking back from a restaurant in Richmond just before midnight. A car slowed down next to us and drove parallel with us for about 10-15 meters, the car was full of guys. Told the missus if they jump out don't argue just hand over everything. The car pulled away (presume it was to recce who else was around). At which point we ran around a corner and into a garden. We literally were laying flat under a car. Seconds later there were 4 guys on the corner clearly carrying things in their hand which I could see from under the car. Luckily there were no IR security lights in the garden. They started searching for us. We had to shift positions into the back garden and hid right into the bushes. I have to say my missus was brilliant doing exactly what I asked her to do, no tears let alone noise, at some points they were less than 5 meters away. Anyway I could go on and on but in summary they were looking for us (2 teams of 2 people and the car driving around) for the entire night. When first light kicked in and buses were on the road to mask our noise/movement we darted in to a newsagents and called the cops. I've done 12 years in the infantry and a few tours of NI etc and can honestly say I've never been so frightened, mostly for my missus but a horrible experience. Since then we've never been comfortable in cities.

 

[nephilim]

I'm going to defend myself here.

Nevermind it 5-1...I literally had no way to hear them. I have a disability which has left me 100% deaf in my left ear, and 40% deaf in my right ear, which will eventually go to being fully deaf in both ears within 3 years according to the specialists at Nuffield Centre in London.

I am due to get a bone anchored hearing aid in the future, but even then, that won't make my hearing 100%. Situational awareness is all well and good, but when you're ambushed (best way I can put it) and knocked to the floor, then it's a bit tough. By the time I turned around knives were there, in my face. I had no chance to react or grab the axe or anything. Even if I did, I doubt I'd have been able to defend myself 5 on 1. If you were ambushed in the situation I was in, and the same happened to you, I highly doubt you'd be able to pull off any sort of defence of your stuff.

You'd do the same as me, hand over the items and hope they leave you alone.

 

[dewi]

You'd do the same as me, hand over the items and hope they leave you alone.

Exactly... in your situation I wouldn't have done anything any differently than you did. No need to defend yourself over anything... it was what it was and you're still alive!

 

[Stevie777]

I'm going to defend myself here.

Nevermind it 5-1...I literally had no way to hear them. I have a disability which has left me 100% deaf in my left ear, and 40% deaf in my right ear, which will eventually go to being fully deaf in both ears within 3 years according to the specialists at Nuffield Centre in London.

I am due to get a bone anchored hearing aid in the future, but even then, that won't make my hearing 100%. Situational awareness is all well and good, but when you're ambushed (best way I can put it) and knocked to the floor, then it's a bit tough. By the time I turned around knives were there, in my face. I had no chance to react or grab the axe or anything. Even if I did, I doubt I'd have been able to defend myself 5 on 1. If you were ambushed in the situation I was in, and the same happened to you, I highly doubt you'd be able to pull off any sort of defence of your stuff.

You'd do the same as me, hand over the items and hope they leave you alone.

No need to defends your actions when your actions were the right thing to do at the time....Karma will pay it forward for these guys. People like that create so many enemies in life, and speaking from experience, when they least expect it, could be next year or a decade from now, their past will catch up with them.

They wont even know what it was for. Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

[Toddy]

It was a horrible situation to find yourself in. I think you did everything in the best way that you could.
At the end of the day, as Sam said, things can be replaced, people can't. They roughed you up, but they didn't use the knives, and for that we're both relieved and grateful.
Your report to the police has them on the lookout, and one attacker has already been found. It's hopeful that the rest will be caught too, and that your missing property is found and returned.

Your hearing loss has my complete sympathy. Folks just say, "Get a hearing aid, it's just like needing glasses"; but when the nerves are gone, there is no way to give you back sound. I hope the bone aid helps immensely and that every other trip out that you have leaves you with much, much, better memories.

M

 

[Brynglas]

I'm going to defend myself here.

Nevermind it 5-1...I literally had no way to hear them. I have a disability which has left me 100% deaf in my left ear, and 40% deaf in my right ear, which will eventually go to being fully deaf in both ears within 3 years according to the specialists at Nuffield Centre in London.

I am due to get a bone anchored hearing aid in the future, but even then, that won't make my hearing 100%. Situational awareness is all well and good, but when you're ambushed (best way I can put it) and knocked to the floor, then it's a bit tough. By the time I turned around knives were there, in my face. I had no chance to react or grab the axe or anything. Even if I did, I doubt I'd have been able to defend myself 5 on 1. If you were ambushed in the situation I was in, and the same happened to you, I highly doubt you'd be able to pull off any sort of defence of your stuff.

You'd do the same as me, hand over the items and hope they leave you alone.

Absolutely right. Well said. Whilst this thread has certainly diverged from the initial topic I think it's well worth remembering what took place here. As a police officer for over 25 years and someone who's practiced martial arts for longer than that, Nephilim reacted perfectly correctly to the situation in my view and should be commended for doing so.

Other people's war stories and advice related to what they would have done aren't helpful. What is worth focusing on here though is that people have rallied around to support Nephilim and I think that response has been a credit to the forum and it's members. One or two of the contributions Ian between have been less so.

Happily, one of the stolen items has been recovered and one person has been arrested. The police will now need to determine if the individual found in possession of the knife was involved in the robbery or not. This will take some time.

 

[Stevie777]

Happily, one of the stolen items has been recovered and one person has been arrested. The police will now need to determine if the individual found in possession of the knife was involved in the robbery or not. This will take some time.

Shouldn't an id parade have been conducted by now.?

 

[Brynglas]

No, depending upon the view that Nephilim had of his Assailants it may not be required. If it is, they're conducted by video nowadays and can be conducted remotely. Rarely are they conducted as early as this.the work now will be to look and see if the others involved can be identified and then whether he can be identified at or near the scene by other methods.