Moral or other question regarding visits into lower COVID tier area.

[Corso]

Long COVID is a term that was being used by medical experts that the media took on. I first heard it on radio 4 in a current affairs stand where a few ournalists who had COVID and were struggling to being back to normal because of such a collection of symptoms went out to investigate. Several senior medical people working at the front line used the term as if it had become a medical term their teams were using.

As for papers, from very early days there's been a whole new tranche of money specifically for short term, fast reporting research. AIUI it was to fast track research results into the mainstream. I know enough academic researchers to know there's been a rush to get proposals out and research started. Indeed some had been started before money allocated which is not usual at all. I also know academics who get called on to do the peer reviews of research seeking publication. COVID research has been going through, fast tracked. It's that important I guess. Although the more important research you are right will take time to get published. The funding is however only for up to 18 months per project AIUI with many being a lot shorter. The idea is to fast track COVID research through the academic system. Researchers are seeing it as a research funding gold rush!!!

You don't have to tell me how academic research works - published my first paper 20 years ago and dip in and out when I have something worth pubishing. But the idea of this is to fast track research through the media, they cherry pick from often ill though out poorly controlled 'studies' that have iffy ethical approval at best - its funny how 2 of the best 'treatments' - Hight dose Dex ( 1957 ) and prone ventilation (1974) have been around for years

researchers might as well be panning for gold...

and I beg to differ on long covid

from the BMJ

“Long Covid” was first used by Elisa Perego as a Twitter hashtag in May to describe her own experience of a multiphasic, cyclical condition that differed in time course and symptomatology from the bi-phasic pathway discussed in early scientific papers, which focused on hospitalized patients. Just three months later, following intense advocacy by patients across the world, this patient made term has been taken up by powerful actors, including the World Health Organization.

Why we need to keep using the patient made term “Long Covid” - The BMJ

“Long Covid” was first used by Elisa Perego as a Twitter hashtag in May to describe her own experience of a multiphasic, cyclical condition that differed in time course and [...]More...

blogs.bmj.com

a hashtag first, public outcrys 2nd - science a very distant 3rd LOL

noone can even agree what Long covid is

But I agree on the Tier system being nonsense - in any form - isolating people for potential risk only increases other risks

 

[plastic-ninja]

As an inhabitant of South Cumbria, (Kendal), I sympathise with Paul's original point.
We are currently inundated with loads of Scots, Mancunians and Scousers enjoying the half term chance to get away with the family.
This probably means that we will soon be joining them in Tier3. Infections do seem to be more frequent among people I know personally , although there also seem to be a lot more people around who have had the virus and are now feeling fine.
Paul is obviously a responsible chap or he wouldn't have asked the question in the first place on a public forum. The potential for widespread transmission is not vested in people like Paul, who would no doubt avoid contact with others and wear the mask. The danger is from the people coming up on holidays, sitting in the pubs & doing the tourist things and justifying their presence with the fact that travel out of a Tier3 area to a Tier1 area is not illegal; just recommended as not good.
There are many in the Lakes walking, climbing, wild camping etc. who will not pose any significant risk of transmission just as there are also many staying in hotels & B&Bs, drinking in the pubs, shopping etc who will be a danger.
On one hand we have Government "advice" not to travel outside our own area and on the other we have a legal obligation on pubs, bars, restaurants etc to close at 10:00pm. The travel ban should be a law as well or it may as well be non-existent. The people who are going to spread this virus far and wide will only take any notice if there are substantial penalties for travel, as there are for congregating in large groups or serving alcohol after 10.
Tiers by county is a very blunt instrument indeed, and in the case of Cumbria we have Barrow in a higher Tier with Carlisle looking like it may follow.
What we probably need is some firm evidence-based legislation so that people know what they are required to do and why it will help if they do. The current rules are at times just bizarre and will be ignored on a huge scale I'm afraid.

 

[Billy-o]

I don't know, plastic-ninja, maybe (just maybe right) if Paul_B or someone similar had asked his question on another forum, and got another response, he'd be off a-visiting right now. Why does anyone need to ask the question at this point; except for reasons of sport and trollage? There is a mountain of clear information out there, and responsible adults should be able to come to a sane understanding of why their should restrict their contact with people, rather than looking for stupid loopholes to wriggle through.

The government is compromised on this matter and we have to take our safety into our own hands - despite the idiots who would like to see the virus spread more aggressively due to their behaviour.

And, we do need continually to remind ourselves that the precautions aren't about you not get getting the virus yourself so much as preventing others getting it who may not be able to fight it off. It works on the basis of something like the opposite to herd immunity, it incubates and thrives on healthy subjects that can sustain it. It is why Trump has been so contemptible about this. Doesn't want to be clear about that bit.

 

[TLM]

the precautions aren't about you not get getting the virus yourself so much as preventing others getting it

Which is probably one of the main reasons why a lot of people could care less "there is nothing for me by following the rules".

 

[plastic-ninja]

There is a mountain of clear information out there, and responsible adults should be able to come to a sane understanding of why their should restrict their contact with people,

There is a mountain of unsupported conjecture and obscurity out there too. Even getting a definition of what they mean by "deaths due to Covid 19" is not at all straightforward. I think you're ( definitely ) doing Paul a disservice because he was clearly proposing that he would still be restricting contact with people. The recommendation not to travel doesn't even qualify as a loophole, stupid or otherwise. It is not even a restriction, so if anyone wants to come to Cumbria from anywhere else there is nothing to stop them other than their own conscience and judgment.

 

[Toddy]

Wednesday 28th October
UK cases increase to 917,575 and 45,365 people are confirmed to have died.

I agree, it's on your conscience.

I think too many entitled people are putting too many others at risk.
I think too many entitled people determined to have what they want, now, has the NHS straining at the seams in many areas. That means that people who would have had a good chance of survival, might well not.

And if that sounds really judgemental, I invite you to consider just how judgemental the defensive posts actually read.

M

 

[sunndog]

Which defensive posts are you referring to toddy?
Give me the numbers so I can read them again please

 

[Toddy]

I can't find the big wooden spoon smilie for you.

At the end of the day folks not keeping socially distant, and believing that their determination that they 'need' to get out away from home is justified and tenable, is just dragging this whole horrible mess on longer and longer and longer.

I'm very glad that I don't work for the NHS just now, that I'm not a politician. I feel heart sorry for those that do because it must seem as if all their efforts are for nothing because a few won't comply with restrictions on their movements enough to stop the disease spreading and surging again.

M

 

[sunndog]

Send me the post numbers in pm then


I'm not stirring a damn thing. Just asking for clarity

 

[Toddy]

Please read the thread. I have no intention of 'naming and shaming' anyone.

It's a discussion, and it's a discussion in a time of upheaval.

So far my family and friends have been very fortunate. Everybody's well, no one is living alone, folks are working from home, and their jobs are safe. I still don't know anyone who has the disease (well, two folks on forums apart that is) and none who have died.

I think it would have been better to be headed into Winter with the numbers really low though. The reckoning is that if the R number is less than 1 then the system will cope, and folks will get the best help they can if they do get the disease. R at that level allows shops etc., to open properly too.

It's to be hoped that the assorted 'firebreaks' will help drop that again. Especially for folks over Christmas. If nothing else the retail and hospitality businesses could really use the boost then.

We need to get there though.

Stay safe

M

 

[Robbi]

There is a little hope out there Toddy, with the measures in place against the spread of COVID ... ie: hands face space... These also work against the spread of the Flu bug, so maybe, just maybe this winter may not be quite as bad as some predict.

 

[sunndog]

I have no intention of 'naming and shaming' anyone.

Nonsense, that has been pretty much the intention behind your posts on this thread, calling people selfish, posting death rates to shame people into following guidlines....yeah, naming and shaming really isn't your thing is it

If you haven't guessed I want to know if you consider my post to be one of the "defensive" posts?
You were quick to jump to hysterical insults but seem unwilling to deal with the fall out.
After levelling looking into the eyes of the families of the dead at me a reply would have been a small courtesy don't you think?
Or were you worried it would effect the narrative you're trying to effect too much, or are you too much of a "special snowflake"

 

[TLM]

Funny, there is apparently a Danish study on the effectiveness of masks that is for some reason so hot that no one wants to publish it.

 

[punkrockcaveman]

I'm done with the pandemic polarising everyone, all people do is argue and fight. Feels like people are turning on each other all the time. We all want freedom we all want to protect our loved ones. End of. There's no answer for both.

 

[Broch]

I think there's some overreaction going on here - it's just a discussion. People do have sensitive views on this subject and it has led to harsh words on previous threads; take a deep breath and let it slide. Maybe, accepting that, we all need to think about how our 'opposing views' sound in print (and I include myself in that).

And, for what it's worth sunndog, I didn't read Toddy's post (about looking the families in the eyes) as directed at you but more towards anybody that increases the risk for others unnecessarily. I understand your comment about the hairdresser being able to visit and not you as well; but that's all part of the trying to keep the wheels of commerce going whilst limiting social meetings (I think).

 

[Billy-o]

It is as Justin Trudeau said today; Covid sucks.

 

[Robbi]

. We all want freedom we all want to protect our loved ones. End of. There's no answer for both.

But there is mate, at the moment we all have to make sacrifices with our freedom for a period of time ( and that really is the answer to both) to protect our loved ones and regain our freedom... Win win I reckon

 

[Toddy]

I like that and I really hope so.

Nonsense, that has been pretty much the intention behind your posts on this thread, calling people selfish, posting death rates to shame people into following guidlines....yeah, naming and shaming really isn't your thing is it

If you haven't guessed I want to know if you consider my post to be one of the "defensive" posts?
You were quick to jump to hysterical insults but seem unwilling to deal with the fall out.
After levelling looking into the eyes of the families of the dead at me a reply would have been a small courtesy don't you think?
Or were you worried it would effect the narrative you're trying to effect too much, or are you too much of a "special snowflake"

You appear to be determined to take offence. I did not accuse anyone in particular of misbehaving.
I did say that people really ought not to travel unless necessary, especially from a tier 3 to a tier 1 region, and I did call posts trying to justify such travel, etc., because it wasn't risking anyone, as 'defensive'.

We are all well aware that social distancing put a heck of a set of brakes on the infection rates and deaths, which are both soaring just now.

I am anything but hysterical. Just not my nature. I would rather quote blunt statistics.
If you haven't done anything to add to those figures, then reading them surely only brings a lot of irritation at the selfish who are causing the surge.

As for a special snowflake, well yes I am.
But then, my special snowflakeyness doesn't risk anyone else.

Have I been good ? Yes. I have quietly tholed the restrictions and am quietly getting on with life. I am grateful for the realities of the internet and the ease of keeping in touch with my family and friends. It would be nice to have those meet ups in real life, but some of them are vulnerable people, so we'll just be patient.
I am well aware that my family are very fortunate to be able to weather the present without worrying about having to travel for work, to go to school, to see to elderly relations, etc., and that many other folks aren't so lucky.
Surely even more reason to be beyond careful.

I genuinely do hope people stay safe, and honestly, your cries of nonsense and demands for my courtesy find no favour.

 

[sunndog]

I like that and I really hope so.


You appear to be determined to take offence. I did not accuse anyone in particular of misbehaving.
I did say that people really ought not to travel unless necessary, especially from a tier 3 to a tier 1 region, and I did call posts trying to justify such travel, etc., because it wasn't risking anyone, as 'defensive'.

We are all well aware that social distancing put a heck of a set of brakes on the infection rates and deaths, which are both soaring just now.

I am anything but hysterical. Just not my nature. I would rather quote blunt statistics.
If you haven't done anything to add to those figures, then reading them surely only brings a lot of irritation at the selfish who are causing the surge.

As for a special snowflake, well yes I am.
But then, my special snowflakeyness doesn't risk anyone else.

Have I been good ? Yes. I have quietly tholed the restrictions and am quietly getting on with life. I am grateful for the realities of the internet and the ease of keeping in touch with my family and friends. It would be nice to have those meet ups in real life, but some of them are vulnerable people, so we'll just be patient.
I am well aware that my family are very fortunate to be able to weather the present without worrying about having to travel for work, to go to school, to see to elderly relations, etc., and that many other folks aren't so lucky.
Surely even more reason to be beyond careful.

I genuinely do hope people stay safe, and honestly, your cries of nonsense and demands for my courtesy find no favour.

Not got the balls to face up to a single issue have you. I used to have the upmost respect for you mary.

 

[Toddy]

Mother Nature didn't equip me with those particular gonads but Sunndog you're being an idiot about this.

I have replied to you, I was courteous, I did not inflame an already irritated thread any further. You however appear to be determined to take umbrage and have the last word.

If you have done nothing to cause risk to anyone else, why are you so angry ?