Military Connections?

[gunnix]

I get military surplus if it's good quality/price compared to other products and if I need it...
I only have a german poncho and military green woolen trousers I found.
oh ye I also have a machete used by the british army.. good and strong.

I'd maybe want to look like I'm in an army but not the state's army...
I do find it very interesting however to see what equipment the military use and which tactics are used.

There's another funny group called the clown army:
http://www.clownarmy.org/

the black bloc often looks like an army too :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_bloc

 

[fred gordon]

I joined up in 1966 and came out in 1984, (seems like it was yesterday). I was a bit army barmy for a while when I came out, but although my favourite colour is actually olive green, I try and stay away from military issue kit. It's for the same reason that I actively embrace the term bushcraft rather than survival, although the two diciplines crossover and compliment each other in many aspects. I strive to make what i do in the eyes of others a positive experience and I feel I can do that from within a bushcraft umbrella, but not so much if I come across as a military or survival enthusiast.

Eric

I've never served either, unless being a Civilian Instructor for the Air Training Corps counts, but I agree with Eric. I prefer to use the term Bushcraft rather than Survival as each word definately has its own common image.

 

[xylaria]

As someone that talks kit like the rest of you talk fungi, I really like army surplus kit. It is cheap and hard wearing so I dont have worry about getting torn or dirty. There bits of it I don't touch with barge pole like the boots.

Obviously I have never served and haven't a clue what OG DPM MOLLE are. As for national service, expecting a generation that has never had any firm boundaries to start taking orders, I think is asking too much of the officer who has to give them. Having troops that expect to able debate a point, or have a discussion of why they should doing to me sounds downright dangerous. I have been in situation where a 18 year smart @r$£ wishes to discuss the morality of control & restraint while you are sitting on someone whose trying to harm, either that or they hide under the table.

 

[Mikey P]

Intwood/Spamel & co,

It's interesting to read your comments on military life - I have just under 2 years left to do and have already made up my mind that I'm going to leave. It's not so much the people - though I understand what you're saying. I think it's a very different air force to the one I joined in 1991. Life/the world/society has changed and the armed forces have changed too; there are still a lot of good guys/girls joining now (and, God, they seem so young and naive - was I like that once?) but their expectations and standards are different.

I have enjoyed the vast majority of my career but I just don't know if I would recommend it as a job anymore. I think you have to know exactly what it is you're letting yourself in for, and if that floats your boat - great! There are still some fantastic opportunities to travel and train and experience amazing things.

Spamel - looks (from your recent change of location) that you've literally just got out. How's it going? Was it as much a culture shock as they say?

Are we far enough off thread yet or should we start talking about UFOs too? Sorry!

 

[Greg]

Considering the Paras after my A levels, if I did join I would love to be special forces one day (even if it does sound naive). Either that or Uni and becoming a motorsport engineer.

Have you actually been to the Careers office fella, if you get your 'A' levels the Army will do their best to not let you in the Paras unless of course your intend on going Officer, but there are attached units from the Signals, Engineers etc that are para trained. I was in 216 Para Sigs

 

[demographic]

Wheres my Nomex fire resistant undercrackers?

If I honestly believed that being in the military was all about defence of our country or helping people who are under a cruel regime I would be all for it.

However, I am not that green and currently our military seems to be more about sidling up to the US and their current crusade fighting for oil so I don't want anything to do with being ordered to kill someone I don't even dislike.

I don't feel that "The War against Terror" or T**T for short is doing anything apart from creating more terrorists and extremists.
Pretending that Iraq had anything to do with the sept 11th attack is just sheer stupididy in my book, most of them were from Saudi.
Of course this is the bit where someone steps into the thread and says I am a bleeding heart pinko but if they can prove that its helping quell terrorism I may well be prepared to eat my words
Oh and anyone that uses the words "Ground Zero" should first look for a picture of Hiroshima just to re-calibrate their settings.

Oh, looking back up there it looks a bit like a rant, errr, sorry.
Anyway, I have a very good mate in the army (he's an amunition technition and part of his job entails bomb disposal) but personally would never join unless it was actual matters of defence.

IMO theres more constructive ways of bettering the planet than shooting people.

 

[Graham_S]

In my experience people didn't join the forces to save the world/fight terrorisim/etc
they joined up to escape their crappy little towns/unemployment and poverty/couldn't think of anything better to do.
It's a reasonably well paying job for an 18yr old with no real education or prospects.

 

[demographic]

In my experience people didn't join the forces to save the world/fight terrorisim/etc
they joined up to escape their crappy little towns/unemployment and poverty/couldn't think of anything better to do.
It's a reasonably well paying job for an 18yr old with no real education or prospects.

I understand what your saying but it always gets me when they whine about being sent to war, I mean it kind of goes with the job doesn't it?
Don't agree with shooting people you don't even dislike? Don't join up then.

Also the "you get an apprenticeship in the army" seems like a daft way of getting an apprenticeship.
Whatever happened to contacting local companies asking for a job?
To me army recruitment feeds off deprived areas which is where your bit about people with not much prospects comes into it.

Oh and national service?
Theres a few reasons why thats a bad idea...

1, It waters down the people who are actually usefull in the army.

2, As for the giving people a skill they can use in later life, do you know that quite a large percantage (that I read but unfortunatly can't remember the number ) of Big Issue salesmen are ex military?
Its a lot higher than the percentage of ex military just in the general population thats for sure. Well that helped them didn't it?

Anyway back on track and I have just taken a proper look at Sheps first comment about not offending people or getting political so will keep my gob shut from now on in

<whistles>

 

[Greg]

2, As for the giving people a skill they can use in later life, do you know that quite a large percantage (that I read but unfortunatly can't remember the number ) of Big Issue salesmen are ex military?
Its a lot higher than the percentage of ex military just in the general population thats for sure. Well that helped them didn't it?

<whistles>

Didn't do me any harm, I left the army after 12yrs on £18,000 a year and walked into a £34,000 a year job. Before I joined up I didn't have any qualifications. I primarily joined up because I had always wanted to be a soldier ever since being a small kid, it was my old man who convinced me to go for a trade related job and thats what I did and I earned myself qualifications in mechanical and electrical engineering, which I wouldn't have got in civ div.
I was / am very proud to have served in the Army, it has nothing to do with whether or not you want to kill someone you don't know.
A member of every generation of my family has served in various regiments of the Army dating back to the Napolionic wars and that was a tradition that I was proud to have carried on.

The worst thing this country did was get rid of National service, I reckon we wouldn't have half the troubles in this country now with crime etc if it was still in place.
I have served in alot of europian countries that still have National service of sorts and their young peolpe have more self respect and self discipline than we have in this country which is commendable IMHO.
And it certainly doesn't water down anything, if anything it helps strengthen the army and the guys / girls who have enjoyed the army life then have the option of extending their service again strengthening the army!

Lets face it Demographic you don't know what your talking about!

Anyway rant over!

 

[Jedadiah]

Whoa, easy fella's,

i think that this thread was actually started to see if there were any ex or current service personnel into bushcraft and if they felt that there was a cross over or benifits either way.

I don't think that a squabble and handbag's over defence or foreign policy is going to give this thread any mileage.

We are all individuals (I'm not!) and therefore have differing views when it comes to the current governments usage of the military, but i think that it may not be strictly relevant to this thread.

I understand that this is a discussion forum but please fella's, lets keep this above the belt and vaguely on topic!

Now, if we can shake hand's and when the bell sounds, come out fighting!

 

[Dunelm]

To me army recruitment feeds off deprived areas which is where your bit about people with not much prospects comes into it.

Something like 1/3 of the Army is recruited from northern England, and another 1/3 from Scotland - which speaks volumes. I had many friends join both the Army, Navy and RAF after leaving school in the 80's and whilst they all gripe about the privations and trials of it it did give them opportunities they would never have had back home, and not just how to negotiate in German brothels...

 

[willowherb]

i spent 3 years in ta..loved the outdoor life.more than anything else

really made me tougher for living out doors and found i could take alot more than before i was in

any others from ta on here??

i was rlc

 

[Toadflax]

I first got an interest in 'living off the land' as I called it after watching a report on Nationwide when one of their presenters tried to survive on a Scottish island for a week and I subsequently discovered Food for Free.

I was thinking of joining the TA (having always had a fascination with the history of WWII) but went to University and joined the OTC. This was a fantastic experience - playing at soldiers without any real responsibility - and it worked like a charm on me and got me to apply for a commission.

I enjoyed Sandhurst and RSME Chatham /Chattenden but then got posted to 36 Engr Regt at Maidstone just after the end of the Falklands. The troop I took command of had been on the Sir Galahad when it was sunk and had lost two men killed and quite a number badly burned. I never really saw much of the men, as the Squadron was now on course support (providing help for the various courses being run at the RSME), nobody gave me any guidance on what I should be doing, and I was bored out of my mind. It may sound naive, but I didn't feel worthy as a junior officer straight out of training to command these men who had been in the thick of what was probably the last war of the British Empire. I was also very lonely - most nights I was in the officers' mess all by myself with nobody I could talk to.

With hindsight, I should have taken the initiative to try and sort things out (but maybe that's why I wasn't cut out to be an officer) and I asked for permission to resign my commission. Even at this stage, none of the senior officers tried to improve things for me and I left after two years service. The best they could suggest was a transfer to the Education Corps - but I wanted to be a Royal Engineer.

I was devastated that it hadn't worked out for me - I remember crying my eyes out as I walked away from my farewell dinner on my last night in the Army and have thought about it many times over with the benefit of hindsight - about how I could have made it work. I have met more than one officer since whose troop sergeant took the new officers by the scruff of the neck and taught them everything that the men did - from Sapper to Recce Sergeant. I just wish that someone had taken me under their wing in the same way.

Anyway...it's sometimes good to open up about these things as it has been hidden inside me for the last 25 years or so. I was, and still am, incredibly proud that I managed to get a commission and do look back on some of my time in the REs with fondness, but with the passage of time leaving was probably the right thing for me.

I still think that military kit is good - though this is a rather blind faith that because it is for the Army, it must be good. However, I personally avoid looking military when doing bushcraft as I don't want to look like a 'weekend warrior' - I want to look like a civilian, though I generally buy subdued colours (darker greens, blues). I do like to use some military kit, I like the idea of using a Millbank bag that was made in 1945.

My bushcraft is not the hard military style survival, it is more the philosophy of trying to live comfortably using, but not abusing, natural resources - something in the style of the stone age /american indian philosophies.

Anyway...sob story over. Not sure what I'm going to vote for as I agree with at least two of the options. I think that conflict has (for better or worse) had a tremendous impact on the development of 'civilisation' and much of the bushcraft technique must have been developed by Orde Wingate and the Chindits, among others (and my non-related namesake 'Mad' Mike Calvert). Equally, I currently would acknowledge a connection but avoid looking military.


Geoff

 

[edispilff]

Great Poll that can really get out of hand .. but for the short and out how about something on a more philosophical scale?
I come from a long line of military in quite a few regions. Grandfather was German Shutzhund trainer. Other Grandfather was US grunt (both WW2)
Personally, military never interested me.
Bushcraft, survival, outdoor life, whatever you choose to call it, is based on finding a harmony with your environment. The ultimate balance is acheived when you realize that you need nothing to exist. Survival will not exist in the vocabulary of the "trancendental" environmentalist.
Military is, whether we want to accept it or not, devotion to both ends of the spectrum of existence - the proponent to agression or defense.
Neither of which bring either towards a balance....
... the balance we are trying to acheive through learning more about the natural surroundings.
So, the analogy questions:
If military is a product of society, and society is a product of nature.. do we look to the roots of nature to learn more about earth's military?

Think we've all been on the computer too long and need to remove ourselves to the recesses of a large forest for a little contemplation.

edispilff

 

[malcolmc]

I’ve never served but early in my career had quite a lot of contact as a civilian in a liaison roll.

I think I would make a very bad soldier – I never could get my head round drill in the scouts – but I do respect those who serve. Apart from a couple of officers, who had their own problems, I found working in a military environment a pleasure; very professional. Wasn’t too keen on officer’s mess rules (civi’s are advised to comply with these if that’s where they’re staying – you are regarded as a guest of the regiment); I’m basically a peasant at heart and dressing for dinner every night was a bit of a pain for me. If I could work it, and there was one on the base, I reckoned staying in a sergeants’ mess was better in every way. I’ve always found sergeants reliable if you needed a job done, no matter what the circumstances.

If I want an alternative view on current affairs from the mainstream media I will use the army rumour mill and Janes Information Group. I hope that gives me a better idea of the reality in far-flung places.

I’m keen on surplus kit; it can be very good value for money. The Ministry of Defence spend a lot of tax payers pennies on getting the design right and in the main I think they succeed. My kit is mainly black with some items of olive green that I would like to change to black. I’m not keen on camouflage pattern as there can be problems using such kit abroad and I’m not going to buy 2 sets.

That’s my pennyworth.

 

[crazydave]

I think we owe the military and the scouts for keeping the skills alive. One was out of necessity the other was just to give the kids something to do that was cheap and cheerfull. The fact that it was started by an old soldier kinda helped.

I did scouts as a kid, then discovered the fine work of eddie and lofty at around 14 often camping out in the middle of the local golf links trapping rabbits and squirrels. I also subscribed to S.W.A.T magazine till it folded which although it had a gun of the month was packed with skills and tips some of which I notice are being rediscovered by the crafting community. TA then Regular service for a few years till the knees went and I was a scout leader for a while till messrs political and correctness spoiled the whole thing in the sameway the forces are suffering now regards recruits. Everything has gone too soft thanks to gps and mobile phones that its really quite worrying.

IMHO school kids should be shipped out and taught the basic skills to survive and thrive outdoors.

I stirred up a wasps nest last year when I asked whether we were still allowed to be called survivalists with all the PC, H&S.. etc. but I think its relevant as its all branches of the same tree and should be recognised as such. I used to teach kids/recruits/work colleages first to survive then to live which I would class as bushcraft as you cook the bugs before eating them

Following the amout of interest after rays first forays into tv land how long before we have born survivor forums with advice on extreme white water body boarding and discussions on how to make scorpions taste better

for the record I like green but tend to stay away from dpm prefering flecktarn or desert colours for everyday wear not just woods wear as I get lonely without all those pockets its cheap and indestructable. meanwhile she's out buying every goretex rip off under the sun in the vain hope that it means her shoulders wont hurt so much after a 20k hike.

 

[crazydave]

A lot of people use military kit and some probably got their interest in bushcraft after military service. I thought it would be interesting to see how strong the connection is.
This is not an 'are you for or against the army in general' question. I don't want to offend anyone, or start getting political.

I would say that its all interconnected as each skill learns from eachother and information passes up and down the chain. There's a lot of us 'survivors' out there though who dont quite get why it was given the new labour treatment a few years ago (no offense or desires to start anything with that last statement).

A bit like allotments, in the past a lot of people grew their own veg to save money nowadays its to be 'organic' and has become the current trend going by my neighbours at any rate. I used to like to go into the woods with a poncho and a bivvy bag because I hate noisy campsites and it got me back to basics, those 'survival' skills I'd learnt helped me gather water, food and provided me with the means to cook them. Now I go out, sling my hammock (because I'm older and seem to think its more comfy) and when people ask what I'm doing then its 'Oh like that ray mears bloke then'.

NO! but then again Yes as the impetus from bushcraft back into the survival world has stopped a lot of schools going under and allowed the instructors new avenues of self interest to explore. This again pushes back into the forces allowing them to make field survival lessons a little less brutal than the combat survival ones. We need eachother but we also need to admit it

Oh and army training areas are great for us too as you only have to ask the range supervisor if its free then basically anything goes, within reason. Just like scout sites.

 

[-Switch-]

<snip>

Oh and army training areas are great for us too as you only have to ask the range supervisor if its free then basically anything goes, within reason. Just like scout sites.

Dave,
Do you have any personal experience of this at all? If so, would you mind PMing me with some details of who you spoke to and what you said? The reason I ask is that I recently tried to arrange a bushcraft meet at a local woodland owned by the MOD and was pretty much laughed at and told to p*** off. ( He did actually use those words )

 

[Greg]

Dave,
Do you have any personal experience of this at all? If so, would you mind PMing me with some details of who you spoke to and what you said? The reason I ask is that I recently tried to arrange a bushcraft meet at a local woodland owned by the MOD and was pretty much laughed at and told to p*** off. ( He did actually use those words )

Its funny you should say that, I have a mate who works at the Castlemartin ranges in Pembrokeshire, he approached the camp RSM for me with the hope of possibly using the land and the RSM basically said we had no chance of getting permission, mainly because the ranges are now managed by a civilian company.

 

[falling rain]

I was in the RCT for 6 years. (Royal Corps of Transport) I got my motorbike , car, hgv 1 licences and served 2 x 6 month tours of NI. @ Girdwood park. patrolling the lovely areas of the Ardoyne and the New Lodge, driving winged PIGS....................happy days My main base was Duisburg West Germany.
I was in NI when Oxford won the League Cup final against QPR in 1986 I joined in 1980 2nd June