maximum size of elm to split

dave k

Nomad
Jun 14, 2006
449
0
48
Blonay, Switzerland
HI,
Just got a boot load of dead ELM from my gran's. I was just wondering if anyone has any experience of splitting it, and what is the maximum size I should really cut the logs into in order to get them to split properly?

I've got a splitting maul and wedge on order, as I know how hard ELM is to split. The wood is fully seasoned, as it's been dead standing for about 30 years. Took me about 4 hours to saw it into 10 14-inch long sections!
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
You are a brave man. I'd consider hiring a pnuematic splitter because I cant see you getting any where with a wedge and mallet. Elm is the worst for splitting, precisely why its used for wheel hubs, and chair seats where you have loads of mortice holes at odd angles-they dont split open. Plus, its not a good fire wood. Shame you didnt get someone with a band mill to plank it up dry it and sell it on?
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
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For the past several decades, Elm wood has been around half of my yearly firewood.

First - which type of elm? White or Red? The Red elm has a reddish/brown look all the way through it. It is also much tougher/dense wood than the White elm - and more resistant to rot and turning punky. White elm has ... whitish wood. It is softer, and does tend to rot or go punky a lot faster.

Second - some elm splits hard, some splits OK, and some splits very easy. You never really know until you try to split it. But most tends to split hard - because of the twisty grain in the wood.

I prefer the hydraulic wood splitter, but I have split elm by hand many times. And I have split blocks up to 3 feet in diameter by hand - with wedges and a 15 pound splitting maul. But I do prefer that hydraulic splitter when I can use it. I cut my firewood to around 18 to 20 inches long - to fit my stove. And some I cut to just under 12 inches long - to use in an old kitchen wood burning cookstove (much smaller/shorter firebox).

So there is no right or wrong way. Some can be easier, some harder. And a lot has to do with what experience you have and the amount of work you want to do.

I prefer to burn oak firewood, but never pass up the chance to get some dry/dead elm - either white or red (but prefer red). It burns faster than oak, and doesn't give off as much heat or last as long as oak, but has it's place. It is great for "taking the chill out" type fires, but won't then over-roast you by getting too hot for too long. This makes it great wood for the Fall or Spring.

Splitting wood by hand does become something of a ... learned skill. You look to avoid trying to split through knots in the wood, to try to follow the natural checks/splits in the wood, and often try to split off little chunks around the outside as you work towards the center. But it's still a lot of work - rewarding, but still work.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 

Mike Ameling

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Jan 18, 2007
872
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Iowa U.S.A.
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Extra strong? Naaa ... just lots of practice.

My splitting maul is one of those modern ones called a Monster Maul. It is a large wedge welded onto a pipe handle (with a hard foam rubber grip on the end). They make/sell them in a number of sizes - 18 pound, 15 pound, 12 pound, and a little Kindling one in 5 pounds. The traditional wood splitting maul is usually 6 or 8 pounds, and the taper on it is more like a fat/thick axe. These monster mauls are a true stubby wedge with straight sides - triangular.

They do take some time getting used to swinging them - mostly the weight. But they work very well. They also claim you cannot get them stuck in wood you are splitting, but you can. I've had to get an 8 pound sledge hammer to knock it loose a number of times.

For comparison, my normal blacksmithing hammer is 3 1/2 pounds. But I have several larger hammers for heavy work - 5 pounds and 8 pounds. And the maul I use when pounding in fence posts on the farm is 20 pounds.

A lot has to do with what you get used to. But swinging that 15 pound monster maul splitting wood for an afternoon sure will make you sleep well that night! (and ache/moan a lot the next day)

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands
 

fishy1

Banned
Nov 29, 2007
792
0
sneck
I had a few elm logs to split recently, each about a foot long as that fits in the fire nicely. Maybe about 20" in diametre, so not too big. I just used my normal axe for it, it's a kinda felling axe with a wide body. I just cut off chunks around the edges with the axe, until it was small enough I could bury the axe in it and raise it up and smack it down. This method works well for me for all difficult to split logs. Never really had alot of love for mauls, first one I bought the head came off mid swing, second one was alright but not really used.
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
You're extraordinarily strong and have a huge amount of stamina, Mike, judging by your last post.

Came across this about 18 months ago, looked interesting then, and the video that's been added since my last visit to the site makes a very convincing case for those of us not built like Thor :D

http://www.vipukirves.fi/english/index.htm

Kind regards,
Paul.


Yes I've seen those as well. On the video's they use a nice pansy bit of fresh straight and clean birch but I really wonder if it would handle weird old elm? :D
Have U seen this flywheel splitter? I've never seen a faster one

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=InAslSkQDa8&feature=user

It reset's in less than the time it takes to reposition the log. I've often wondered why there isnt a pneumatic spliutter that will split on the push and the pull instead of only on the push and having to wait several second's for it to reset?
I have also often wonderd if you could make a log splitter made like a huge stock knife (guillotine type action but with a very long and strong handle, a bit like the german kinderling splitters but much more massive build strength?)
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
www.angelfire.com
Yes I've seen those as well. On the video's they use a nice pansy bit of fresh straight and clean birch but I really wonder if it would handle weird old elm? :D
Have U seen this flywheel splitter? I've never seen a faster one

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=InAslSkQDa8&feature=user

It reset's in less than the time it takes to reposition the log. I've often wondered why there isnt a pneumatic spliutter that will split on the push and the pull instead of only on the push and having to wait several second's for it to reset?
I have also often wonderd if you could make a log splitter made like a huge stock knife (guillotine type action but with a very long and strong handle, a bit like the german kinderling splitters but much more massive build strength?)

A Double-Acting hydraulic splitter could be designed, but it would cost well over twice as much - with the two-way hydraulic cylindar and all the extra framework to hold everything in line and run the piston/wedge on extra guide rails. But that would also push/work the operator a lot harder. That recovery time as the cylindar resets gives you the time to clear things out and position the next piece to split. Yes, sometimes you do end up waiting for things, but it also gives you that brief rest.

Those guillotine type kindling splitters work well, but are hard to scale up for splitting large pieces of wood. The problem is the amount of force you need to apply. It increases exponentially as the size of the wood needing to be split does. They were also called a Block Knife, and used for shaping wood - like for making wooden shoes and clogs.

No, I am not that extra-ordinarily strong, and not that great on the stamina. I'm actually a little soft and out of shape after lazing about so much of the winter. And I used to be in much better shape back when I was still working on the family farm. But it's all a matter of perspective - what have you been doing and gotten used to doing. I used to be able to cut/load/haul/unload 5 or 6 pickup loads of firewood in an afternoon. Now 4 loads kind of pushes things. (The cutting part is the hard part.) I run a 20 inch blade on my chainsaw, and have cut down and blocked up elm trees over 40 inches in diameter (it gets a bit tricky carefully cutting from both sides to get all the way through the middle).

So goes life out here in the Hinterlands.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. I watched part of that flywheel logspitter video. (I only have dial-up) The pieces of wood he was splitting were pretty straight grained and easy to split. It was fast, but really wonder how fast it would have been on some really tough wood to split. Plus, how robust is that mechanical ratchet piston drive?

And you should see one of those huge "woodscrew" type log splitters work. It is literally a huge wood screw. You start is spinning, then push the side of a log into the point of it. The threads on the end then dig in and pull it into the log. The farther in it goes, the more force is applied to split out the wood. It works just like driving a woodscrew into a straight-grained board. They are crazy to watch in operation - and more than a bit scary.
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
p.s. I watched part of that flywheel logspitter video. (I only have dial-up) The pieces of wood he was splitting were pretty straight grained and easy to split. It was fast, but really wonder how fast it would have been on some really tough wood to split. Plus, how robust is that mechanical ratchet piston drive?

And you should see one of those huge "woodscrew" type log splitters work. It is literally a huge wood screw. You start is spinning, then push the side of a log into the point of it. The threads on the end then dig in and pull it into the log. The farther in it goes, the more force is applied to split out the wood. It works just like driving a woodscrew into a straight-grained board. They are crazy to watch in operation - and more than a bit scary.

Hi Mike
I didnt think of that (how efficient the flywheel was on weird wood instead of straight) I expect you get a spectacular explosion if it all gives way with all that knettic fly wheel energy flying about and wanting to go sopmewhere :lmao: . I expect they built in a system to cope with that like the sacrificial bolt they put in the flywheel to PTO connection on a hay baler so it gives way if theres too much strain from wet hay? I reckon all firewood splitting systems would ideally like to work with nice straight clean coppice (no side branches or crotchhes) I know one lad as uses a finnish log processor he has 2 stacks of logs-1 that WILL go through it (nice clean coppice) and another that WONT (everything else, and that pile is big) I know another lad as uses the tapered screw method on a PTO on his tractor, he swears by it it will do most stuff (except elm) His Dad said more than once they had to get the elm log off the screw with a chain saw as it was fully in, had not split and had stopped working.Is american elm as wild and non splitting than english elm? What do they do to stop the log spinning once the screw bites, is it held in a pneumatic clamp or something?
I saw a drawing of greek olive press where they had a long boom arm with stone weights to get pressure for to get the oil out, I keep trying to imagine a design that worked some how like that, turn around almost as quick as your average pnuemattic splitter, but easy to build, quiet, no gas needed. Maybe somehow raise the boom, then let it drop, a bit like the old water powered trip hammer's?. There was another spliitter on youtube, the bloke was raving on and on about it but never showed it working?:rolleyes: :confused: It had a splitting blade that come down vertically powered by a gas engine.
cheers Jonathan :)
 

TheGreenMan

Native
Feb 17, 2006
1,000
8
beyond the pale
...I'm actually a little soft and out of shape after lazing about so much of the winter. And I used to be in much better shape back when I was still working on the family farm. But it's all a matter of perspective - what have you been doing and gotten used to doing. I used to be able to cut/load/haul/unload 5 or 6 pickup loads of firewood in an afternoon. Now 4 loads kind of pushes things. (The cutting part is the hard part.)...

You’re being very modest, Mike.

A while ago, I was testing some axe grinds by chopping on a fallen tree, and it was a bit of a ‘wake-up call’ when I realised how quickly I was getting tired. I was standing on top of the trunk and bending over to chop at a large-ish bough with a long handled hatchet (which was still way too short for standing in this position), and was so tired from the fairly modest exertions that I nearly let go of the hatchet during the blade’s follow through. I just managed to hold onto it and stop the handle butt sliding through the palm of the one hand remaining on the handle.

It was a scary moment, but I guess this is what can happen when one starts to do this kind of stuff as a very out of shape 50 year old. I know how one can loose one’s ‘edge’ after a few months of relative inactivity, but just don’t ever leave it for 20 years, like I have.

I guess there’s your kind of ‘out of shape’ and then, there’s my kind :D

Cheers,
Paul.
 

Mike Ameling

Need to contact Admin...
Jan 18, 2007
872
1
Iowa U.S.A.
www.angelfire.com
Hi Mike
I didnt think of that (how efficient the flywheel was on weird wood instead of straight) I expect you get a spectacular explosion if it all gives way with all that knettic fly wheel energy flying about and wanting to go sopmewhere :lmao: . I expect they built in a system to cope with that like the sacrificial bolt they put in the flywheel to PTO connection on a hay baler so it gives way if theres too much strain from wet hay? I reckon all firewood splitting systems would ideally like to work with nice straight clean coppice (no side branches or crotchhes) I know one lad as uses a finnish log processor he has 2 stacks of logs-1 that WILL go through it (nice clean coppice) and another that WONT (everything else, and that pile is big) I know another lad as uses the tapered screw method on a PTO on his tractor, he swears by it it will do most stuff (except elm) His Dad said more than once they had to get the elm log off the screw with a chain saw as it was fully in, had not split and had stopped working.Is american elm as wild and non splitting than english elm? What do they do to stop the log spinning once the screw bites, is it held in a pneumatic clamp or something?
I saw a drawing of greek olive press where they had a long boom arm with stone weights to get pressure for to get the oil out, I keep trying to imagine a design that worked some how like that, turn around almost as quick as your average pnuemattic splitter, but easy to build, quiet, no gas needed. Maybe somehow raise the boom, then let it drop, a bit like the old water powered trip hammer's?. There was another spliitter on youtube, the bloke was raving on and on about it but never showed it working?:rolleyes: :confused: It had a splitting blade that come down vertically powered by a gas engine.
cheers Jonathan :)


On those wood-screw type splitters, they usually have a braced bar sticking out on the one side next to the spinning splitter part. You rest the wood on that bar, and it keeps the whole log from spinning. Yes, you can get wood "stuck" on it - if it doesn't want to split. Then you have to stop it, and go in and cut all those twisty wood fibers still holding it together. Like most mechanical wood splitters, they work best on straight grained easy splitting wood. The tough twisty grained wood is always the hard stuff to split - like elm, and oak knots. The hydraulic splitters tend to work best on those.

One drawback to those woodscrew type splitters is that you have less control over the size of the pieces you are splitting the wood into. It tends to splinter out into smaller slivers a bunch more.

There are hydraulic log splitters that can be tilted upright to use. You just have to roll the log over to it, and then it pushes the wedge down through the wood. Saves you having to lift that big chunk up onto the machine. But they tend to have the splitting wedge on the end of the hydraulic cylinder arm instead of a flat plate, and then push that wedge through the log - instead of pushing the log into the wedge. Just a different variation, but most common ones push the log into the wedge.

The big problem with a swinging arm kindling splitter are those mechanical laws we learned back in school - of levers and force. The longer the lever you have, the more force you can apply over a short distance near the other end. But the "handle" end also then has to travel a greater distance. The end of a 2 foot long lever will only really have to travel between 1 and 2 feet on the end. But if you make that lever 4 feet long, the end will have to swing in an arc at least 4 to 6 feet - for the same amount of travel down near the pivot end. You do get several times more force you can apply, but you have to "run" a lot more at the other end to do it. It's still a nice thought, and could possibly be tweaked up some more to work better, but those old laws of physics start kicking in fast. Adding some extra levers and linkages could increase the force without some of the total length, but the splitting wedge portion won't travel vary far with each swing.

At an old farm sale years ago, I saw one part of what had been a home-made log splitter. I still shiver just thinking about it. Nobody wanted to buy that piece. Even the scrap iron junk buyers hesitated. The thought of it and how it might have worked just made people's blood run cold. The person had taken a large flywheel and axle from an old machine, and had welded a splitting maul head onto the outside rim of the flywheel!!!!!! The only way it would have worked is to have that flywheel spinning, and then quickly jam a log up next to it before that splitting maul head spun around to hit/split that log. Yeah, I still get shivers thinking about it!

But now I kind of wish I had bought it at the farm sale for a buck - just for a "conversation" piece. And as a warning about the potential dangers of some ideas!

Elm is elm. Most is pretty tough to split, with lots of twisty grain. But sometimes you get a tree that splits fairly easily. When this happens, I usually have to stop everything, and make sure just what type of wood it really is. So occasionally you can luck out - occasionally.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - yee ol' grumpy blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

p.s. Yes, taking a little break from doing normal daily physical work sure lets you know how fast you "go soft". Athletes deal with this all the time - which is why they do so much training even during the "off" season.
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
The big problem with a swinging arm kindling splitter are those mechanical laws we learned back in school - of levers and force. The longer the lever you have, the more force you can apply over a short distance near the other end. But the "handle" end also then has to travel a greater distance. The end of a 2 foot long lever will only really have to travel between 1 and 2 feet on the end. But if you make that lever 4 feet long, the end will have to swing in an arc at least 4 to 6 feet - for the same amount of travel down near the pivot end. You do get several times more force you can apply, but you have to "run" a lot more at the other end to do it. It's still a nice thought, and could possibly be tweaked up some more to work better, but those old laws of physics start kicking in fast. Adding some extra levers and linkages could increase the force without some of the total length, but the splitting wedge portion won't travel vary far with each swing.

Just another thought, I wonder if you could use a variation of the bolt cutter type mechanism to increase power (but then you only get a small amount of travel....:lmao: )
 

mr dazzler

Native
Aug 28, 2004
1,722
83
uk
At an old farm sale years ago, I saw one part of what had been a home-made log splitter. I still shiver just thinking about it. Nobody wanted to buy that piece. Even the scrap iron junk buyers hesitated. The thought of it and how it might have worked just made people's blood run cold. The person had taken a large flywheel and axle from an old machine, and had welded a splitting maul head onto the outside rim of the flywheel!!!!!! The only way it would have worked is to have that flywheel spinning, and then quickly jam a log up next to it before that splitting maul head spun around to hit/split that log. Yeah, I still get shivers thinking about it!

But now I kind of wish I had bought it at the farm sale for a buck - just for a "conversation" piece. And as a warning about the potential dangers of some ideas!


Would this video show said machine :lmao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bVAAx3mMKY&feature=related
Is that one of the dude's out of zz topp?
 

fishy1

Banned
Nov 29, 2007
792
0
sneck
That thing is a deathtrap. Plus, it didn't even look that fast at cutting them, and it got stuck on a fairly small piece of what I think was birch.
 

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