Lightening the load

[rg598]

I have worn both synthetic and natural material clothing and I can tell you that at the end of the day you will smell like camp smoke in either type. That will overwhelm any other smell there may or may not be. Don't stress out too much about that.

If the weight problem comes from you clothing, look into clothing that uses fill insulation. Non fill clothing like fleece and wool is heavier for the same amount of insulation, and does not compact nearly as well. Fill insulation, whether it be down or synthetic will same you a lot of weight for the same amount of clothing. It is not as good int he rain. My preferred material for when I am out in the rain is to use fleece because it retains its insulation when wet and dries quickly. If you are not planning on being out int he rain however, fill insulation of some sort will cut off a lot of weight.

Here is a list of all my other (winter gear): http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/sea...:00-04:00&max-results=4&start=4&by-date=false

Here is a variation I used this past weekend: http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/04/weekend-in-woods-33112-4112.html

 

[Podcast Bob]

We've tried most brands of merino, silk,coconut and synthetic currently on the market and I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about merino holding moisture longer.

Coconut is the worst for moisture and takes the longest to dry. Followed by the silk, then synthetic and 'light' merino.

They will all hold the smell of wood smoke of course, and synthetic will be the easiest to wash in a stream and take abuse. But coming back to the OP, I would still rate merino as best for the longest use for performance and sweat.

Insulation is another topic depending on intended use. Of course sparks from fire will melt most of the modern synthetic/ mix tops which is another consideration of course.

 

[treadlightly]

A quick question for the Merino wearers who have given me some truly brilliant ideas so far!!
Field and Trek, the link that Lister put on here actually have a few Merino tops in there at pretty good prices, but what I have noticed is that they are not 100% Merino wool, they are normally between 40-60% merino and another material, here is an example - http://www.fieldandtrek.com/nike-thermal-wool-half-zip-top-mens-452040

My question is, do the tops need to be 100% wool to get the best effect ie keeping the odours under control etc, or will 40% do the job?

Keep up the great advice people, it truly is invaluable!!!
Cheers
Steve

Much as it goes against the grain, I would say that a bit of synthetic with wool does no harm. I have a Falke base layer which is 60 per cent wool with 20 each of polyester and polypropylene. It works as well as all-wool at restricting odour and dries quicker. Having said that, I wear my 100 per cent wool most times.

 

[treadlightly]

We've tried most brands of merino, silk,coconut and synthetic currently on the market and I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about merino holding moisture longer.

Coconut is the worst for moisture and takes the longest to dry. Followed by the silk, then synthetic and 'light' merino.

They will all hold the smell of wood smoke of course, and synthetic will be the easiest to wash in a stream and take abuse. But coming back to the OP, I would still rate merino as best for the longest use for performance and sweat.

Insulation is another topic depending on intended use. Of course sparks from fire will melt most of the modern synthetic/ mix tops which is another consideration of course.

Bob, interesting to hear that you reckon merino dries quicker than silk. I was tempted by the cocona/merino mix last year but resisted. Have you any experience of how well that dries?

 

[Podcast Bob]

I'm comparing the Silkbody brand with Embers and Icebreaker 150gm tops.

The cocona mix sounds interesting but it depends on brand and percentage.

BTW the Embers product does wash well and still look smart after 12 months normal use. I like them cos their British and affordable.

 

[Shewie]

I have worn both synthetic and natural material clothing and I can tell you that at the end of the day you will smell like camp smoke in either type. That will overwhelm any other smell there may or may not be. Don't stress out too much about that.

That's a good point Ross, it was more the BO smell I was referring to when comparing synthetics to merino. It was the OP mentioning he wanted to get back in the mountains rather than playing in the woods, the tree line is a lot lower for us over here so if you're doing mountains there's not much chance of a fire.

We've tried most brands of merino, silk,coconut and synthetic currently on the market and I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about merino holding moisture longer.

Coconut is the worst for moisture and takes the longest to dry. Followed by the silk, then synthetic and 'light' merino.

They will all hold the smell of wood smoke of course, and synthetic will be the easiest to wash in a stream and take abuse. But coming back to the OP, I would still rate merino as best for the longest use for performance and sweat.

Insulation is another topic depending on intended use. Of course sparks from fire will melt most of the modern synthetic/ mix tops which is another consideration of course.

That is interesting Bob, I'd always presumed the Silbody tops would dry really quickly, I nearly added one to my ever expanding order

I've found the lighter merino tops to dry quickly too, it's the thicker Woolpower tops which I've found to hang on to it a bit more, no probs with Icebreaker etc

Have you any experience of the Finisterre stuff yet, I read Hendriks article a few weeks ago and fancied giving them a go, namely the boxers for the TGO rather than the awful Smartwool ones I have now, fine round the waist but legs hems for a weightlifter

 

[cbr6fs]

We've tried most brands of merino, silk,coconut and synthetic currently on the market and I'm not sure I would agree with the comment about merino holding moisture longer.

Coconut is the worst for moisture and takes the longest to dry. Followed by the silk, then synthetic and 'light' merino.

They will all hold the smell of wood smoke of course, and synthetic will be the easiest to wash in a stream and take abuse. But coming back to the OP, I would still rate merino as best for the longest use for performance and sweat.

Insulation is another topic depending on intended use. Of course sparks from fire will melt most of the modern synthetic/ mix tops which is another consideration of course.

Obviously a the material and thickness used makes a MASSIVE difference as does how you are drying it.

All i can say is, from my experience the baselayer i'm currently using (see post #75) is that in direct sunlight with a slight breeze it dries in around 30 mins.
If you wear it and are moving but not sweating heavily it actually dries while your wearing.

This has not been the case with my mates Merino tops, some of which were still damp after a nights sleep (dry night).


The other thing worth mentioning is that again in my experience wool can often feel dry on the first touch but still have a LOT of moisture contained.
So any tests carried out by touch will be fairly inconclusive, the only way to properly tell if it's dry is to weigh it.


With regards to fire, again in my view this is not really a problem in the real world.
Sure a flying ember may melt some man-made baselayers, in reality though i've yet to burn a hole in any of my clothing in years and years of being round camp fires.
Also worth mentioning that even mates that smoke like chimneys have not had problems.


This forum is fantastic with it's diversity and the way we all experience the outdoors in different ways.
There is a snobbery here against man-made fibres in some quarters though, which is fine it's that's what they prefer.
If someone is car camping though what works well for them is not going to work the same as someone who is hiking 15 miles a day up the sides of mountains/hills.

This is often overlooked, but it's an essential part of advising people.


So as i've said before both man made and synthetic fibres work, both have their advantages and disadvantages which is better is down to personal preference and the activities they do.
I am merely trying to inform the op there are those of us that do not like wool and prefer synthetics.

 

[Shewie]

I'm not gonna quote because it looks like I'm having a go but, what are the disadvantages of merino, obviously comparing the same weight of fabric per square metre?

Every other layer of clothing I wear for hiking trips is synthetic, it's just with the base layers I stick to wool, they're the ones which are going to smell after prolonged use, merino just doesn't do that.

If we're talking about bushy trips then just about all my clothing is wool or cotton/polycotton apart from my shell

 

[spandit]

what are the disadvantages of merino?

Price? Might be more difficult to wash?

 

[Shewie]

Price?

Not really, there's budget offerings for both, the top end stuff is pricier but I wouldn't call it a disadvantage, you're getting what you pay for at the end of the day

Might be more difficult to wash?

Possibly, I just choose a wool wash on the machine or hand wash in the field like I would with a poly top. Drying could take longer but if the top is light like a 150g then the difference is minimal



Edited to add ..

These are just my findings over the last few years so YMMV

 

[Graveworm]

I'm not gonna quote because it looks like I'm having a go but, what are the disadvantages of merino, obviously comparing the same weight of fabric per square metre?

Synthetics will keep you warmer, wick better and dry faster for the same weight of material but it's only a small advantage. Merino IMO feels better next to the skin and, as is often said, is naturally anti pong, the top end synthetics are also as good at dealing with odours these days but they cost pretty much as much as Merino.

 

[t1234]

Personally I love the merino but find even the thinnest merino too warm for wearing carrying a pack in all but winter. The wicking is much better with synthetics once merino gets wet it takes ages to dry (though not as bad as cotton).

This might be too geeky for some but what I did is weigh everything i have for backpacking on electronic scales and put it in a spreadsheet then its very easy to see where there is room for improvement. To start with give yourself a doable target of 10-12 kg and then aim to cut that as you get more experienced and comfortable leaving stuff behind and when you get lightweight gear.

When you buy new stuff always look at the weight and factor that in. You don't have to get the ultra lightweight gear if too expensive but avoid getting stuff needlessly heavy.

 

[jacko1066]

Personally I love the merino but find even the thinnest merino too warm for wearing carrying a pack in all but winter. The wicking is much better with synthetics once merino gets wet it takes ages to dry (though not as bad as cotton).

This might be too geeky for some but what I did is weigh everything i have for backpacking on electronic scales and put it in a spreadsheet then its very easy to see where there is room for improvement. To start with give yourself a doable target of 10-12 kg and then aim to cut that as you get more experienced and comfortable leaving stuff behind and when you get lightweight gear.

When you buy new stuff always look at the weight and factor that in. You don't have to get the ultra lightweight gear if too expensive but avoid getting stuff needlessly heavy.

Good advice there matey, how long would your trip be with a 12kilo pack?
And does that include food and water?
Cheers
Steve

 

[t1234]

No that doesn't include food and water and would be for anything from 2 - 7 nights. If more than a couple of nights I'd just take 2 spare socks and a spare pants. Dry socks are very important and can get wet through weather or sweat. Mostly the weather in the uk isn't good enough to dry clothes if you wash them in a day, socks however you can put in your sleeping bag damp and should be dry enough by the morning.

I normally take a long sleeve merino top and a wicking synthetic t shirt, hike in the t shirt then swap when setting up for the night that way you have something dry to change into, same goes for socks keep a pair dry.

As for pants stay clear of the synthetic ones, they really do pong after a couple of days, I stick to normal cotton ones.

 

[jacko1066]

No that doesn't include food and water and would be for anything from 2 - 7 nights. If more than a couple of nights I'd just take 2 spare socks and a spare pants. Dry socks are very important and can get wet through weather or sweat. Mostly the weather in the uk isn't good enough to dry clothes if you wash them in a day, socks however you can put in your sleeping bag damp and should be dry enough by the morning.

I normally take a long sleeve merino top and a wicking synthetic t shirt, hike in the t shirt then swap when setting up for the night that way you have something dry to change into, same goes for socks keep a pair dry.

As for pants stay clear of the synthetic ones, they really do pong after a couple of days, I stick to normal cotton ones.

Cheers pal, and how do you find a synthetic top after a couple of days?
This really is hoarses for courses lol!! I really am amazed by the diversityof answers on this subject of base layers and stuff!!
I really do think though that when I get around to getting out, the way forward is definately to have 2 sets of clothes, day and evening!!
So with food and water what would your pack weight go up to?
Cheers for the advice!!
Steve

 

[t1234]

I don't find the t shirt that bad to be honest, I try and not sweat too much by wearing as little as I can (mainly shorts and t shirt) - always try and be a bit cold when starting out as you soon warm up. If you sweat too much not only will you stink but you will constantly have to take on water.

As to total weight with food and water really does depend, try to plan the food so you can pick up some at a village shop or similar. Try and make food dehydrated as possible, porridge, couscous etc. Cured meats or foil packed tuna.

I think the most my pack was right at the start of all this backpacking was about 25-30kg but that weight for me makes it too much which I think you find with most people, lug a big pack up a mountain for a few days and then you soon realise why people get obsessed with pack weight. Having said that its all part of the learning process! The best thing to do is to get out there and do it and learn by your mistakes. At the start don't leave out so much that makes you feel ill equipped, if you want a spare compass and torch and 2 pairs of pants its better to take them than to worry too much about not having them.

Good thread though mate, its compelled me to start pulling stuff out of the cupboard and planning next trip!

 

[rg598]

Since the question shifted from saving weight to synthetic vs. wool, backpackinglight did a test a few year back. They found that for base layers merino wool dries about 50% slower than Capilene. I find that the difference is not that significant with base layers because they tend to be thin. If the synthetic dries in 5 minutes, and the wool one dries in 7 minutes, it's not the end of the world. However, for thicker items, the difference becomes much more pronounced, and so does the added weight of the moisture that is retained.

The wool that I wear is mostly surplus stuff. I am just not going to spend $100+ for a base layer. I don't care of what material it is made or if it starts to smell like roses after being worn for a week. My polyester base layer cost me $10. It may not be as good as a merino wool one or a capilene one, but it's certainly not 10 times worse. My wool shirt is surplus and costs another $10. It has the texture of sand paper, but, I can't justify spending more when a $10 fleece sweather will do the same job.

As far as synthetics and fire, which I have heard mentioned a few times, I find the claims of melting to be extremely exaggerated. Commonly used synthetics do in fact melt more easily that wool, but I am yet to have a spark melt or ignite any of my clothing. I was just out last week, and cooked exclusively with fire and wore just fleece-not a single issue. In fact, in the last ten years I have had only one piece of clothing melt. It was a glove which I used to move a log from the fire. It turned out that the log was still glowing, and slightly melted the top layer of my glove. I still use the same gloves.

My point is, it's all six of one, half dozen of the other. The claims with respect to both synthetics and natural materials tend to be very exaggerated on the forums. I decide based on price and common sense. If on the other hand weight savings is still the goal, fill materials are a good option, whether they be natural or synthetic.

 

[jacko1066]

Since the question shifted from saving weight to synthetic vs. wool, backpackinglight did a test a few year back. They found that for base layers merino wool dries about 50% slower than Capilene. I find that the difference is not that significant with base layers because they tend to be thin. If the synthetic dries in 5 minutes, and the wool one dries in 7 minutes, it's not the end of the world. However, for thicker items, the difference becomes much more pronounced, and so does the added weight of the moisture that is retained.

The wool that I wear is mostly surplus stuff. I am just not going to spend $100+ for a base layer. I don't care of what material it is made or if it starts to smell like roses after being worn for a week. My polyester base layer cost me $10. It may not be as good as a merino wool one or a capilene one, but it's certainly not 10 times worse. My wool shirt is surplus and costs another $10. It has the texture of sand paper, but, I can't justify spending more when a $10 fleece sweather will do the same job.

As far as synthetics and fire, which I have heard mentioned a few times, I find the claims of melting to be extremely exaggerated. Commonly used synthetics do in fact melt more easily that wool, but I am yet to have a spark melt or ignite any of my clothing. I was just out last week, and cooked exclusively with fire and wore just fleece-not a single issue. In fact, in the last ten years I have had only one piece of clothing melt. It was a glove which I used to move a log from the fire. It turned out that the log was still glowing, and slightly melted the top layer of my glove. I still use the same gloves.

My point is, it's all six of one, half dozen of the other. The claims with respect to both synthetics and natural materials tend to be very exaggerated on the forums. I decide based on price and common sense. If on the other hand weight savings is still the goal, fill materials are a good option, whether they be natural or synthetic.

Great reply mate, I cant help but agree with you on the price of some of this merino stuff, and price is a huge factor for me!!
The way this discussion got on to wool vs synhetic is that I realised I was carrying way too much clothes, and the reasn for that is I like to have fresh clothes everyday as, so the subject got onto wool holding in odour better than synthetics etc etc.
For me, I think the way forward is going to be to get a couple of decent base layers, 1 merino and 1 synthetic, start off with the synthetic and change over to the wool after a day or so, if its only a 2 day trip then just wear the wool!!
I have loads of decent micro fleece tops and also a really nice merino jumper which is no longer good enough for best!!

Just by matter of interest, what kind of footwear do you hike in regularly? Iv have always been a boot man myself, but I keep reading more and more of people wearing trail shoes and the like, I also keep hearing a phrase, summit like a kilo off the feet is a kilo off the back?
Cheers
Steve

 

[sandbender]

"...I also keep hearing a phrase, summit like a kilo off the feet is a kilo off the back?.."

There may be something to that. I wear all terrain sandals for nine to ten months every year, if nothing else it cuts down on the number of socks I have to carry and wash. When I'm wearing boots I want a proper pair of leather boots, I really don't get along with trail shoes and such.

 

[Shewie]

Just by matter of interest, what kind of footwear do you hike in regularly? Iv have always been a boot man myself, but I keep reading more and more of people wearing trail shoes and the like, I also keep hearing a phrase, summit like a kilo off the feet is a kilo off the back?
Cheers
Steve

If I'm expecting it to be wet and I'm out for a longer trip then I don't bother trying to keep a pair of goretex boots dry but wear a light pair of running shoes instead. No goretex lining and little in the way of ankle support, you walk straight through rivers and bogs and get wet feet, but they dry very quickly and lead to far less problems than a full boot that never dries.

Running shoes are light so you get to chose your foot placement rather than being guided by the momentum of a heavy boot. The difference at the end of a long day of walking is incredible, much much less tiring.

I've used Inov8 Terroc 330 for the last 12 months, for the TGO next month I'm going to try Salomon Speedcross 3.