Legalities fo Fishing rods, handlines etc

[Joonsy]

Okay folks here’s a report of three men that were fined a total of £750 for fishing with handlines in a freshwater river in Wales in 2002. They were found fishing with handlines and were prosecuted for fishing ''using an unlicensed instrument''. The environment agency stated that ''the only legal way to fish in freshwater is by the use of a rod and line and with a valid licence''. Therefore a precedent has already been set in court, a handline is illegal and you can expect to be prosecuted if found to be fishing with a handline, in fact the law states that it is not only an offence and illegal to use one but even just to have one in you possession with the intent of using it.

Link to men prosecuted for fishing with handlines http://www.total-fishing.com/fishing-news/handliners-fined-£200

The law regarding this is called ''The Salmon & Freshwater Fisheries act 1975 section 27'', this link shows that law.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1975/51/section/27

A person is guilty of an offence if, in any place in which fishing for fish of any description is regulated by a system of licensing, he—

(a)fishes for or takes fish of that description otherwise than by means of an instrument which he is entitled to use for that purpose by virtue of a fishing licence or otherwise than in accordance with the conditions of the licence; or

(b)has in his possession with intent to use it for that purpose an instrument other than one which he is authorised to use for that purpose by virtue of such a licence.

Clearly fishing with a handline in freshwater is illegal, I doubt very much indeed that the guy in the vid had special permission (the fact he didn’t mention it in the vid convinces me) however once again am happy to be proved wrong.

 

[3bears]

''usingan unlicensed instrument''

just think about that for moment there...

Spot on Joonsy, you can follow that to the letter- ANY fishing tackle is an 'unlicensed instrument' if you don't have a don't have a licence- rods n all. It's clear that you need an appropriate EA Licence to fish, but it doesn't specify what is a handline or make distinction between them and rods.

https://www.gov.uk/freshwater-rod-fishing-rules/tackle-you-can-use

The link you posted to the article also makes no mention of the men having licences, just that they were caught and fined ( typically vague and sensationalized journalism unfortunately)

Also,if you look at the latest EA stats (last years)...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/enforcement-patrols-catch-illegal-anglers-in-the-north-east
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/enforcement-patrols-catch-illegal-anglers-in-yorkshire
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/more-anglers-caught-fishing-illegally-in-the-north-east

the split is pretty even between fishing out of season, or without a licence- with a handful using illegal baits- no mention of handlines at all

If you have a licence, there is no reason legally why you can't do this-handlines have become one of those things that everybody jumps on and says 'nooo you can't do that , it's illegal' for so long it's unquestioned now, when clearly there are questions that ought to be asked.

If nothing else we elect people to do a job and pass legislation, if they aren't doing that one way or another we should ask why- it's seemingly the almost religious repetition ofthe mantra of a bygone time-when every poacher was the enemy of a country estate somewhere.

For the record, yes back when I used to fish the local rivers here on the island, I had an EA rod licence, and yes I did use a handline, it was a lot of fun pulling brook trout out of the river that passes next to the Council Chambers in Llangefni to show my nieces, I haven't renewed the licence, so I don’t do it anymore, the same as I don’t use a rod there, because without the licence I'm not entitled to fish without that EA licence.



I do however, use my larger handlines from the beach and coast, where I have no end of fun. You don't need to stick to tiny tackle, heck you can get a 50m cast easily with a 1oz weight

]

Handlinefishing is becoming something that we are at risk of losing because we don’t understand the current legislation, and unquestioningly obey others when asked- everybody pipes up 'it's illegal' without ever asking to see where it's written, or what aspect of it makes it illegal. POACHING is illegal, I'm sure we all see the link between an easily concealable fishing kit, but if you’re paid up with the EA and fishing a stretch with the landowner's permission there is nothing to stop you doing this.

In fact I challenge anyone toactually dig up the the bit that says ' no handlines, or what thedistinction between one and a rod is' . If you can, I will gladly hold my hands up, and keep my gob shut on the subject forever

 

[Joonsy]

The link you posted to the article also makes no mention of the men having licences, just that they were caught and fined

If you have a licence, there is no reason legally why you can't do this-handlines

for the record, yes back when I used to fish the local rivers here on the island, I had an EA rod licence, and yes I did use a handline, it was a lot of fun pulling brook trout out of the river

Handlinefishing is becoming something that we are at risk of losing because we don’t understand the current legislation

In fact I challenge anyone toactually dig up the the bit that says ' no handlines, or what thedistinction between one and a rod is' . If you can, I will gladly hold my hands up, and keep my gob shut on the subject forever

Fishing without a licence is a seperate offence to fishing with an unlicenced instrument.

If found using a handline you can be prosecuted, a handline is classed as an unlicenced instrument therefore it is illegal to fish with one, as the people who were prosecuted for using them found out.

Yes it is a lot of fun but I am not talking about whether it gives pleasure but the legalities of it, be a guinea pig and invite an EA bailiff along to where you are fishing with a handline and let us know how the bailiff reacts.

We can't lose the legal right to fish with a handline in freshwater in england and wales because we don't have it in the first place, the right to disregard the law is a seperate matter. --- (saltwater fishing is covered by different legislation).

I challenge any sane person to legitimately claim the image below is a fishing rod.

My post was not aimed at whether fishing with a handline is fun, it was strictly concerned with the legality of it only, lots of illegal things may be fun but it seems to me the guy is trying to present bushcraft in a respectable law-abiding manner therefore he should not show illegal fishing methods which tempts kids to get themselves into trouble when they go off and try them unless he clearly states the method is illegal as a warning in the vid. I get a little fed up with people who preach respectabilty when they break the law themselves, I would be interested to know why such people who condemn lawbreaking think it’s okay to openly disregard the law themselves.

 

[paulnb57]

I accept what you say, is what you believe to be true and am not picking a fight, however, yes I do believe the image above could be considered a fishing rod, it is a "rod" and can be used for "fishing"…….
What hasn't been shown in this thread is EVIDENCE that the above image is illegal, the rules I linked to earlier say what you CAN use, but there is no mention of size. A "Rod" by definition is a length of something - the image above is a length of something. As said earlier there is a lot of anecdotal "evidence" to suggest that the above image is illegal, but without a written rule it remains anecdotal…….

I DO NOT condone illegal activity at all and it is not my intention to promote it…..

Paul

 

[3bears]

I challenge any sane person to legitimately claim the image below is a fishing rod.

well, that's kind of easy really.


C&P'd straight from Google for your convenience .....




rod
rɒd/Submit
noun
noun: rod; plural noun: rods
1.
a thin straight bar, especially of wood or metal.
"concrete walls reinforced with steel rods"
synonyms: bar, stick, pole, baton, staff; More
a wand or staff as a symbol of office, authority, or power.
"the royal insignia included the ring, the sceptre, and the rod"
synonyms: staff, wand, mace, sceptre; caduceus
"the ceremonial rod of the House of Commons"
a slender straight stick or shoot growing on or cut from a tree or bush.
"the roof is formed of willow and hazel rods woven between willow rafters"
a stick used for caning or flogging.
"he swung the rod again in a threatening arc"
the use of a stick as punishment.
noun: the rod
"if you'd been my daughter, you'd have felt the rod"
synonyms: corporal punishment, the cane, the lash, the birch, the belt, the strap; More
vulgar slang
a man's penis.




the picture you have posted is clearly defined as a rod, yes it's a short rod, but it's still a rod- and it's used for fishing.


where in the legislation does it define what is a rod - it doesn't or you'd have been able to quote it here instead of trying to answer my question with another question

 

[Tom Gold]

Hardly dare mention it, but he uses a shotgun in one of his other videos...!

 

[paulnb57]

Hardly dare mention it, but he uses a shotgun in one of his other videos...!

and a Catapult……..

 

[copper_head]

and a Catapult……..

And really big fixed blade knives. Somebody think of the children!

 

[Joonsy]

the picture you have posted is clearly defined as a rod, yes it's a short rod, but it's still a rod- and it's used for fishing.

where in the legislation does it define what is a rod - it doesn't or you'd have been able to quote it here instead of trying to answer my question with another question

I disagree that the picture represents a fishing rod in a way that a court would accept it to be one. To me it's an instrument used for handlining, and the guy in the vid actually stated his similar item was a handline when he said and to quote ''casting the handline is very easy'' at 5:24 in the vid, that evidence alone would be enough to convict him in a court of handlining as it's an admission that he himself considers it to be a handline. It’s a fact that the three guys handlining were found guilty and fined for the offence of fishing with an unlicensed instrument under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, so a precedent has been set that handlining in freshwater in england & wales is illegal. however i will leave it there.

[FONT=&amp]Throughout my posts I am not referring as to whether handlining is fun or even whether it should actually be illegal or not, I am simply trying to relate to the legal position and nothing else.[/FONT]

 

[Quixoticgeek]

I'm assuming he has a license for the shot gun...

He seems a sensible enough guy, just wish he had put in a "this is not legal in the UK" in the handlining vid...

J

 

[dennydrewcook]

Is their a defiant proved answer to this then? It is illegal ?


Denny 😊

 

[3bears]

I disagree that the picture represents a fishing rod in a way that a court would accept it to be one. To me it's an instrument used for handlining, and the guy in the vid actually stated his similar item was a handline when he said and to quote ''casting the handline is very easy'' at 5:24 in the vid, that evidence alone would be enough to convict him in a court of handlining as it's an admission that he himself considers it to be a handline. It’s a fact that the three guys handlining were found guilty and fined for the offence of fishing with an unlicensed instrument under the Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, so a precedent has been set that handlining in freshwater in england & wales is illegal. however i will leave it there.


[FONT=&amp]Throughout my posts I am not referring as to whether handlining is fun or even whether it should actually be illegal or not, I am simply trying to relate to the legal position and nothing else.[/FONT]

are you even reading the links I have posted, the data directly from the EA about how many people they have caught and doing what... and that there WAS NO MENTION OF HANDLINES ANYWHERE in that data, at all.....


Also, please define an 'unlicensed instrument' as if going by common sense if you don't have a licence for a rod, it is also an unlicensed instrument.

You're really missing the point here, if you have and EA licence, there is nothing I or anyone I know has been able to find that says ' no you cant do this' other than the hearsay in threads like this

Where does it say your rod has to be of a certain length- please, show us where it says this- unless you can provide the evidence, ( and if it is a prohibited, illegal method of fishing it WILL be written down somewhere) well it speaks for itself really ....

 

[Joonsy]

are you even reading the links I have posted, the data directly from the EA about how many people they have caught and doing what... and that there WAS NO MENTION OF HANDLINES ANYWHERE in that data, at all.....

Yes I have read all your links thankyou, the one link refers to fishing rules. The other links refer to people caught illegally fishing mostly by not having a valid licence or fishing in the coarse fish close season during 2014 through spot checks by the environment agency, which is totally irrelevant to fishing with an unlicensed instrument as they are totally separate offences. Just because no-one was reported in those links for being prosecuted for fishing with a handline during 2014 doesn’t mean it’s legal or illegal, it just means nobody was prosecuted for doing it. I have gave my opinion and you are entitled to your own, sooner than trade opinions perhaps if you want a definitive answer the best people to ask is the environment agency, if I am wrong I will gracefully accept it and hope others would do the same if they are wrong too.

 

[Jack Bounder]

Any luck, my friend (formerly) from the EA will be able to shed some light on this...

 

[Joonsy]

I have just emailed the environment agency myself and asked for a definitive answer to what is the legal definition of a ''rod'' in relation to the conditions of a fishing licence. I will post their answer when/if I get a reply. I have stated more than once that I am happy to be proved wrong and it remains the case.

 

[Dave]

Im not really to bothered about treading on peoples toes....

I still say you cant use a handline. I fish in the Yorkshire Dales, on the Ure, the Wharfe, the Aire, the swale, the River Nidd, and I like small stream fishing too, so some of the tributaries. Thats some of the major Dales Rivers. The north yorks moors, and the dales combined is about 1500 square miles. Roughly double the size of any other national park in the uk. Im sure there are a few small stretches that are not rented from landowners by fishing clubs, the occasional field perhaps. [It would hardly be worth your time to travel all that way, to fish a length the size of a field, even with the landowners permission and if you had permission tp access that field via the other fields]

All of that land is owned by someone, and rented by different fishing clubs, and they all have their own rules. And I seriously doubt any of those clubs, who between them have the rights to all of the waters, would let you use a handline. [No chance, in fact, I reckon.] They all have their little rules books which they send out to you at the beginning of each season, packed full of what you can and cannot do. And Ive never even seen mention of 'handlines'.

Try calling the Bolton Abbey estate and speak to the riverkeeper, mark and ask him if you can get a day ticket, on their six mile stretch, and use a handline. Or the appltree, barden and burnsall angling club, on their six miles, at the redlion and ask if you can use a handline. Or Kilsney. etc...I think they'd just laugh out loud, or sound dumbstruck

Theres a passport scheme in Wales, called the wye and usk passport sheme,[and other parts of the UK], where all the landowners get together, and all the rivers have beat numbers. Over one hundred miles of river fishing. So you can just choose your river and pay for the beat you want to fish. Again, Im sure if you rang them, and asked to use a handline, they would just say no chance matey.
http://www.wyeuskfoundation.org/fishing/passport.php

I also dont mind being proven wrong.....

Its very complicated stuff. The endless debates on Diploids, or triploids, hook sizes etc, theres rules for everything...Some people would string you up, for pulling out a trout like that, [which looked like a fin perfect breeding wild brownie] for lunch.. it affects the ecology of the entire river system. Look at the lectures given by the wild trout trust on youtube. Magnificent fish the Brownie, I think its only one of a couple of species that is native to these isles and was here ten thousand years ago.

The thought of using a handline on a chalkstream down south is unthinkable. Can you imagine trying to fishing the test, with a handline? They might even shoot you. Theres a rumour that if you canoe down the spey, with a rod hanging off the back of your canoe, trawling for salmon, the landowners will shoot at you....as the americans pay a grand a day for the privelige of landing a spey salmon.....

Its the stuff of fantasy. Having lambasted the idea a bit, there are websites, which mention 'free fishing' places. Little bits of land, [god knows who owns them] sometimes just a couple of metres, and very rare, where you can fish from. But hardly any. I dont know if you could use a handline there or not. That would be up to the EA presumably.

[By the way, I think all of that sucks big time, and being able to look at a map in california, find a thin blue line, in a forest, then hike in, and go and try to catch a big trout is do-able and nirvana. But you cant do it here, as were feudal, and all the common land was nicked from our ancestors]

Now, if were talking about the endless small hill lochs in Scotland, I have no idea what the crack is up there? Any scottish anglers care to comment? I can see how you could get away with a handline relatively easily up there....Dont know about the legalities though.

If you really want a definitive answer, try asking the question on a forum like www.flyforums.co.uk, where some of the members are some of the most knowledgable people you could come across. [and some of the grouchiest] as anglers are prone to be IMO.

Or send someone like Dr Paul Gaskell, on the wild trout trust website an email, and ask him, hes normally very approachable, and extremely knowledgable, and ask him for a definitive answer.

pgaskell@wildtrout.org

 

[Buckshot]

Is there a chance we're confusing what's written in law and club rules a little.
Any club can place restrictions on it's club members in addition to those laid down in law - BCUK is a good example
Phoning a club and asking to do something out of the ordinary doesn't mean it's illegal when they so no, it just means the club doesn't want it.

What would be more helpful Dave, is to point to specific law or act(s) where you believe it states the legality of it
Unfortunately your current stance could be seen as trolling without at least an attempt to prove yourself

 

[paulnb57]

Is there a chance we're confusing what's written in law and club rules a little.
Any club can place restrictions on it's club members in addition to those laid down in law - BCUK is a good example
Phoning a club and asking to do something out of the ordinary doesn't mean it's illegal when they so no, it just means the club doesn't want it.

What would be more helpful Dave, is to point to specific law or act(s) where you believe it states the legality of it
Unfortunately your current stance could be seen as trolling without at least an attempt to prove yourself

My thoughts exactly, club rules may not allow handlines, but it doesn't make them illegal in the sense of the law, but illegal according to the club rules......

 

[Dave]

Is there a chance we're confusing what's written in law and club rules a little.
Any club can place restrictions on it's club members in addition to those laid down in law - BCUK is a good example
Phoning a club and asking to do something out of the ordinary doesn't mean it's illegal when they so no, it just means the club doesn't want it.

What would be more helpful Dave, is to point to specific law or act(s) where you believe it states the legality of it
Unfortunately your current stance could be seen as trolling without at least an attempt to prove yourself

Youre missing the point.

If every section of river is 'out of bounds' because of rules, laid down by whoever, then you cannot use a handline, can you?

Its not trolling at all. In fact I could have gone further instead of keeping it lighthearted, and said, its irresponsible not to point that out.

You show me a river where I can go and use a handline, and I'll apologise and shutup.

 

[Dave]

My thoughts exactly, club rules may not allow handlines, but it doesn't make them illegal in the sense of the law, but illegal according to the club rules......

But every section of every river is owned by a club, and club rules apply. So whether or not its legal, is immaterial.

If you cant do it. You cant do it...