Laws
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I never said anything about him being gay mate... YOU DID.
Never entered my head actually.
Sounds like you are trying to cause trouble actually mate.Always someone that has to pick the bones out everything isn't there?
Mind you, you seem to have a habit of that lately, don't you?
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It means sneaking onto private land and camping without the owners knowledge or permission.
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You know what's weird ?
It's the Scottish Mod who's keeping an eye on a illegal camping thread
ste-carey, you began by talking about stealth nights; your second post contradicts your first.
The rest of you have been on here long enough to know better
Now, who is Dale Winton ??
cheers,
Toddy
It's the Scottish Mod who's keeping an eye on a illegal camping thread
ste-carey, you began by talking about stealth nights; your second post contradicts your first.
The rest of you have been on here long enough to know better
Now, who is Dale Winton ??
cheers,
Toddy
He's a nice chap Toddy, who does Super Market sweep, a very educational programme (scrapped) that used to be shown on daytime TV
You know Mary, I dont entirely disagree with it. It isn't always reckless and irresponsible. What I find curious, is that people feel the need to talk about it on the internet. It sometimes seems to have that sense of a bunch of robbers chatting about which post office they knocked off over the weekend.
I remember as a child only being allowed to camp in certain areas (MOD land or shooting estates) because the local police considered the family to be decent, respectable folk; that we were in some way known to them through people that they knew,like the local fire officer that my Dad had served with, that kind of thing.
I remember too that most folks, if asked civilly had no problems with folks camping on their land. Indeed farmers usually pointed out where to get clean water and hinted that the Missus had eggs, tatties, bacon and butter for sale too
I don't think I ever encountered the negativity that some folks have shown on this and other threads.
Different country, different culture.
Is it just the, "Git orf my land", or is it the public liability issue that has come to the fore in these litgatious times, that keeps things so hard and resistant to change in England, Wales and Ireland ?
cheers,
Toddy
The point is Toddy is that there are jobs that have to be done in the countryside that at are far more important than a mornings jaunt, incidentally I don't own any farmland, just work on it.
Folk used to be welcome, but seeing as most in recent years they cannot keep to footpaths, allow areas to become full of dog crap (in fields that contain milking herds), rip down fences to make illegal footpaths, allowing dogs to chase livestock, enter areas that have pest control being carried out (despite signs),
leave crap/ litter everywhere after we allow them to use fields for sledging in winter time, ride motor bikes though growing crops. Well we have decided to rescind those privileges.. and simply call the police.
It never used to be like this, villagers respected the farmer and understood the ways of the countryside
They had a chance and blew it.
Unfortunately "Get orf my land" quotation is now used by the ignorant, to defend themselves.
If they made themselves tolerable it would not happen Toddy.
present company excepted, I'm sure.
Basically its best to stay off of Intensive Farmland.
Folk used to be welcome, but seeing as most in recent years they cannot keep to footpaths, allow areas to become full of dog crap (in fields that contain milking herds), rip down fences to make illegal footpaths, allowing dogs to chase livestock, enter areas that have pest control being carried out (despite signs),
leave crap/ litter everywhere after we allow them to use fields for sledging in winter time, ride motor bikes though growing crops. Well we have decided to rescind those privileges.. and simply call the police.
It never used to be like this, villagers respected the farmer and understood the ways of the countryside
They had a chance and blew it.
Unfortunately "Get orf my land" quotation is now used by the ignorant, to defend themselves.
If they made themselves tolerable it would not happen Toddy.
present company excepted, I'm sure.
Basically its best to stay off of Intensive Farmland.
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I can answer that question with some certainty (in one case, anyway).
A friend of mine is a Police officer. I asked him what he would do if he was out and got a call saying that someone had seen someone camping illegally in some nearby woods and to go and check it out.
He just laughed and said that he's got better things to do than trounch through the woods late at night. He said he'd give it an hour and then he or his partner would call back and say they couldn't find anything.
I don't think this could be put down to the fact that he also likes to wild camp, since he'd have someone with him who would be equally unwilling to search a patch of woods on the off-chance.
When I pushed it a bit further he did say it would also depend on many other factors. Reports of a group of youths in the woods with a massive fire blazing and shouting and making noises was far more likely to be investigated. But a report of a couple of people camping out in the woods was highly unlikely to go any further.
But that's just his response. There are plenty more Police officers. But I got the feeling that his view was pretty much the standard. And given that he used to be in the army, likes camping himself, and enjoys the thrill of the chase then, if he can't be bothered with searching through the woods, I doubt more 'urban' bred officers would!
I would like to point out, though (for the sake of some people who like to jump on just one aspect of a poster's comments) that my friend did say that the decision to act on the report would depend on several factors - the 'I wouldn't bother responding' attitude wasn't a blanket reply, just a general attitude. If other factors were reported at the same time then these would influence the decision.
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Reading this it does seem to embody a lot of the raging erm.. discussions that come up on here which focus on the
" I dont see anything wrong with it so i'll do as i please" view
Unfortunately even the best willed people dont usually know the full picture, this may be the 'just burning the old wood around the place' which can be important habitat, or the dog flushing nesting birds up from areas of rough vegetation or hedgerows because they are not on leads (because its often believed only to be important when there are cattle in the field).
I think people should be able to make sensible decisions but unfortunately the ill informed lazy, or arogant and rather argumentative (not all but many) do make it hard for those that do know enough to be trusted believed or given a fighting chance.
Incidently picking a few shrooms, brambles or some elder isnt inherently illegal unless you cause damage in doing so (ie walk through a crop field, damage fences etc), uprooting plants is - again for a veriety of reasons not just bluebells but based on many people not being very good at knowing what they are digging up or the efect that they are having.
Example being the increase of areas of WT land which is not public access now owing the the disturbance caused primarily by dog walkers (in the cases i know of) refusing to keep animals on leads, the majority of WT land is permissive access and so can be taken away and prevented from all of us enjoying it sensibly.
" I dont see anything wrong with it so i'll do as i please" view
Unfortunately even the best willed people dont usually know the full picture, this may be the 'just burning the old wood around the place' which can be important habitat, or the dog flushing nesting birds up from areas of rough vegetation or hedgerows because they are not on leads (because its often believed only to be important when there are cattle in the field).
I think people should be able to make sensible decisions but unfortunately the ill informed lazy, or arogant and rather argumentative (not all but many) do make it hard for those that do know enough to be trusted believed or given a fighting chance.
Incidently picking a few shrooms, brambles or some elder isnt inherently illegal unless you cause damage in doing so (ie walk through a crop field, damage fences etc), uprooting plants is - again for a veriety of reasons not just bluebells but based on many people not being very good at knowing what they are digging up or the efect that they are having.
Example being the increase of areas of WT land which is not public access now owing the the disturbance caused primarily by dog walkers (in the cases i know of) refusing to keep animals on leads, the majority of WT land is permissive access and so can be taken away and prevented from all of us enjoying it sensibly.
Timboggle, who has many years professional experience working in the countryside dealing with these issues, put together two excellent articles of good advice.
We stickied these as best practice on both gaining access, and wild camping.
The articles are to be found in the Out and About forum and the shortcut links are:
Wild Camping in the UK.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52767
Land Access, seeking and finding permission.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52652
cheers,
Toddy
We stickied these as best practice on both gaining access, and wild camping.
The articles are to be found in the Out and About forum and the shortcut links are:
Wild Camping in the UK.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52767
Land Access, seeking and finding permission.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52652
cheers,
Toddy
It’s the stance i find interesting, some people deem it their right to do what they want and in doing so they take away the rights of others, I’m sure that there are actions that would compromise their rights that they would not like, but they would deem it as unacceptable because they have a different point of view. I don’t get the shouting about it at all. Many people wild camp and or stealth camp, obviously there’s areas of England and Wales where it’s fine and accepted to wild camp, in those cases there’s no issue, stealth camping on someone’s private land, often because people can’t be bothered to actually trace down someone to ask is a personal decision and in my opinion should stay a personal thing.
What I don’t accept on bushcraft uk is the talking lightly, justifying and encouraging others to break the law -yes one can be pedantic about common law and civil law etc but on here in this context I’ve decided that breaking the law is breaking the law – I would love rights of access like they have in Scotland but we’ve not got it. Those of you that advocate camping on and using the resources owned by other people, have you taken the time to lobby your MP? Find land owners that might let you camp? Looked at paying for camping? (doesn’t have to be with money, many land owners will take your time to do work on the woods) A few will have and they’ve got frustrated but the majority haven’t and they have just taken the easy route of adopting a ‘i have the right’ attitude.
Over the years we’ve had many organisations realise that bushcrafters are general good guys, but we’ve had some disasters where just a few people have ruined relationships with organisations buy being irresponsible (and yes, in this context illegal camping is irresponsible) and being blasé about it, or damaging their property etc. We’ve had organisations read the forums , stuff like this and realised that there are people that don’t respect their rights and many people have suffered because of it and years of building relationships have gone out of the window and all for the sake of a few people that want to shout about their rights, a very selfish approach to things.
Those that have exhausted all other avenues and feel that they can only stealth/wild camp should keep it to themselves, that’s not to say don’t talk about your weekend and the great time you had but don’t go on about your rights as justification for your actions because they’re not recognised here.
Those that think they have rights or would like to see the law change should band together and lend your weight to political movements that want to change the laws in the applicable parts of the UK
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/freedom and other organisations lobby for greater access, do you support them?
More info here on access
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/countrysidecode/default.aspx
What I don’t accept on bushcraft uk is the talking lightly, justifying and encouraging others to break the law -yes one can be pedantic about common law and civil law etc but on here in this context I’ve decided that breaking the law is breaking the law – I would love rights of access like they have in Scotland but we’ve not got it. Those of you that advocate camping on and using the resources owned by other people, have you taken the time to lobby your MP? Find land owners that might let you camp? Looked at paying for camping? (doesn’t have to be with money, many land owners will take your time to do work on the woods) A few will have and they’ve got frustrated but the majority haven’t and they have just taken the easy route of adopting a ‘i have the right’ attitude.
Over the years we’ve had many organisations realise that bushcrafters are general good guys, but we’ve had some disasters where just a few people have ruined relationships with organisations buy being irresponsible (and yes, in this context illegal camping is irresponsible) and being blasé about it, or damaging their property etc. We’ve had organisations read the forums , stuff like this and realised that there are people that don’t respect their rights and many people have suffered because of it and years of building relationships have gone out of the window and all for the sake of a few people that want to shout about their rights, a very selfish approach to things.
Those that have exhausted all other avenues and feel that they can only stealth/wild camp should keep it to themselves, that’s not to say don’t talk about your weekend and the great time you had but don’t go on about your rights as justification for your actions because they’re not recognised here.
Those that think they have rights or would like to see the law change should band together and lend your weight to political movements that want to change the laws in the applicable parts of the UK
http://www.ramblers.org.uk/freedom and other organisations lobby for greater access, do you support them?
More info here on access
http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/enjoying/countrysidecode/default.aspx
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Sorry mate, if you enter someone's land or property and remove ANYTHING you are stealing, whether that be £50 note or a blackberry. You have no legal claim to it whatsoever.
It belongs to the landowner end of story People attempt to trivialize their actions by using the term " a few", well that will not get you off a theft charge when accused of stealing.
Its theft. Have you ever thought that the landowner may sell jams as a part of their livelihood?, ,many do, so what if all the locals suddenly turned up and helped them selves to "a few" blackberry's? crop destroyed that's what, and livelihood affected.
There may also be conservation issues in the area that require certain natural fruits to be left alone, again this can and will be ruined by the selfish ignorant acts of trespassers.
Also carry a knife with you can be arrested for armed trespass and you are in deep water.
AS for the police failing to check out illegal camping well, the initial caller should ask for a crime number, that way it has to be followed up, and any cop that fails to answer a call because he thinks that its all OK (because he does it too) should be struck off. Its not a cops call to decide what he will answer and what he won't.
Sounds like anarchy to me, and the trouble with anarchy is that you run out of other peoples resources
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I did say I wouldn't go so far as the guy on COTWS and trespass, so if somebody s shooting their rifle on public access land and shoots me, they'll be going to nick! So I'm not the proverbial pain in anybodys' **** and will be just fine, and if I was to get caught then it would be caught taking a few blackberries from a hedgerow or some ramsons or whatever. I don't trespass onto private property at all, I thought I had made that clear! Carry on preaching at me if you wish though!With my pedant hat on.
That's not anarchy. Anarchy means a system of society monitoring and controlling itself, without any central government. People often use the word 'anarchy' incorrectly to mean a rioting mob smashing McDonalds' and Starbucks' windows. Classically, 'anarchy' is a neutral term that just describes a form of society. It most certainly does not include social breakdown or all hell breaking lose and people doing what they want.
The word you were actually looking for, to describe a breakdown of law and order and society's accepted standards, is 'anomie'.
Pedant hat back off.
In response to Poddle
Due to the historical importance of wild foods picking them is not a criminal offence. Section 4, subsection 3, of the Theft Act 1968 makes it clear that –
A person who picks mushrooms growing wild on any land, or who picks flowers, fruit or foliage from a plant growing wild on any land, does not (although not in possession of the land) steal what he picks unless he does it for reward or for sale or other commercial purpose. For the purpose of this subsection 'mushroom' includes any fungus, and 'plant' includes any shrub or tree.
Whilst picking may not be theft, it might be theft if you uproot a tree or shrub and take it away, you are also not permittet to uproot wild growing plants without permission anyhow.
Not including protected species under the Wildlife and Countryside Act (section 13/Schedule 8) and under other regulations damaging these plants is a criminal offence.
It is only a crime if you do not have the right to be there, (in which case your presence is the crime not the taking) OR if it impacts financially on the landowner, Or you are doing it for financial gain. Celearly if someone grows brambles and makes jam from them and you pick them you are comercially affecting them and this is a crime.
However there are pleanty of places you can take things legaly - ie from a footpath as long as it is not a crop of any type etc so tresspassing is unnessesary.
However i am with you in the police and knife carrying comment.
Due to the historical importance of wild foods picking them is not a criminal offence. Section 4, subsection 3, of the Theft Act 1968 makes it clear that –
A person who picks mushrooms growing wild on any land, or who picks flowers, fruit or foliage from a plant growing wild on any land, does not (although not in possession of the land) steal what he picks unless he does it for reward or for sale or other commercial purpose. For the purpose of this subsection 'mushroom' includes any fungus, and 'plant' includes any shrub or tree.
Whilst picking may not be theft, it might be theft if you uproot a tree or shrub and take it away, you are also not permittet to uproot wild growing plants without permission anyhow.
Not including protected species under the Wildlife and Countryside Act (section 13/Schedule 8) and under other regulations damaging these plants is a criminal offence.
It is only a crime if you do not have the right to be there, (in which case your presence is the crime not the taking) OR if it impacts financially on the landowner, Or you are doing it for financial gain. Celearly if someone grows brambles and makes jam from them and you pick them you are comercially affecting them and this is a crime.
However there are pleanty of places you can take things legaly - ie from a footpath as long as it is not a crop of any type etc so tresspassing is unnessesary.
However i am with you in the police and knife carrying comment.
Hi STE Carey,
I'd take a wild guess that when you went into your rant you expected others to round to the call. lol. There's a lot of worthwhile, sound advice on this forum for someone like yourself, but you do have to stop and give a thought to what is for the greater good.
You might want to read up on your own history regarding the Mass Trespasses of the 1930's and 60's, but I believe they were mostly directed at land in public ownership, like reservoirs and national parks.
I do understand your frustrations. In Scotland we have a right of access and can camp anywhere worth camping, the few exceptions being business premises/stockyards/farm steadings and enclosed land with livestock or crops, railways, etc... and too close a proximity to a house! Householders have a statutory right to privacy under the Land Reform Act (Scotland), as does someone camping.
There has always been a general acceptance of walkers and campers in Scotland, to a degree! Of course, there were the exceptions. I've had shotguns waved in my face by shooters, attempts at intimidation by land owners and had my car vandalised by fishermen who assumed I was poaching salmon because my car was parked at the roadside by the River Tay overnight, and I have to admit that wasn't very clever of me!
My first thought however, was to draw a comparison between Ben Alder Estate's (among many others) signs welcoming walkers and climbers to enjoy the estate and wishing them safe passage, and the one-off example of copious signs around the vast expanse of Fisherfield Forest, what used to be referred to as The Whitbread Wilderness, stating more or less that trespassers might be shot.
But these are the rare exception, as most farmers, estate owners and keepers are immensely proud of their land, if defensive, and who wouldn't be? I just wish I had an entity like Ben Alder sitting in my back yard. I discovered a long time ago that the face of the dourest Head Keeper will just light up if the right questions are asked. But dinna cross him by wandering into likely stalking areas during the stag shooting. That's his livelihood!
I discovered recently a beautiful small woodland with a disused woodsman's shelter, carpenter's bench with vises, and enclosed with a dry stone wall. With regard to Scottish Rights of Access, I can go and camp there if I please and there's nothing anyone can do about it... except hassle me during the night, and there's nothing I could do about that in the absence of witnesses.
But why risk putting folks noses out of joint. It's only common courtesy to go and ask permission from the owner on the offer of repair and maintenance. If he objects then it's no use to me and, in my view, would be a great pity and a loss on both sides but I can still do the odd sneaky night's legal camping and he'd be none the wiser.
But I probably wouldn't bother, as I'm too long in the tooth to be looking over my shoulder for someone who thinks I might be casing his house up for a burglary!
I'd take a wild guess that when you went into your rant you expected others to round to the call. lol. There's a lot of worthwhile, sound advice on this forum for someone like yourself, but you do have to stop and give a thought to what is for the greater good.
You might want to read up on your own history regarding the Mass Trespasses of the 1930's and 60's, but I believe they were mostly directed at land in public ownership, like reservoirs and national parks.
I do understand your frustrations. In Scotland we have a right of access and can camp anywhere worth camping, the few exceptions being business premises/stockyards/farm steadings and enclosed land with livestock or crops, railways, etc... and too close a proximity to a house! Householders have a statutory right to privacy under the Land Reform Act (Scotland), as does someone camping.
There has always been a general acceptance of walkers and campers in Scotland, to a degree! Of course, there were the exceptions. I've had shotguns waved in my face by shooters, attempts at intimidation by land owners and had my car vandalised by fishermen who assumed I was poaching salmon because my car was parked at the roadside by the River Tay overnight, and I have to admit that wasn't very clever of me!
My first thought however, was to draw a comparison between Ben Alder Estate's (among many others) signs welcoming walkers and climbers to enjoy the estate and wishing them safe passage, and the one-off example of copious signs around the vast expanse of Fisherfield Forest, what used to be referred to as The Whitbread Wilderness, stating more or less that trespassers might be shot.
But these are the rare exception, as most farmers, estate owners and keepers are immensely proud of their land, if defensive, and who wouldn't be? I just wish I had an entity like Ben Alder sitting in my back yard. I discovered a long time ago that the face of the dourest Head Keeper will just light up if the right questions are asked. But dinna cross him by wandering into likely stalking areas during the stag shooting. That's his livelihood!
I discovered recently a beautiful small woodland with a disused woodsman's shelter, carpenter's bench with vises, and enclosed with a dry stone wall. With regard to Scottish Rights of Access, I can go and camp there if I please and there's nothing anyone can do about it... except hassle me during the night, and there's nothing I could do about that in the absence of witnesses.
But why risk putting folks noses out of joint. It's only common courtesy to go and ask permission from the owner on the offer of repair and maintenance. If he objects then it's no use to me and, in my view, would be a great pity and a loss on both sides but I can still do the odd sneaky night's legal camping and he'd be none the wiser.
But I probably wouldn't bother, as I'm too long in the tooth to be looking over my shoulder for someone who thinks I might be casing his house up for a burglary!
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