Laws

[Bluefrog]

i would never destroy the thing i love by going into the woods and randomly felling trees, and absolutely despise anybody that does. But I really don't feel that anybody in this world can say that camping and living off of the land for a few days is illegal, in areas which are not privately owned as long as it is done sustainably.

freedom is not the choices between what job and what car, nobody should have that much power over the land, I believe it should be like the right to roam law!

never feel bad for doing a good stealth night, even if you get caught (there's not enough of them on here)

want to hear your views on this one, and if were like minded I believe unity is they way forward!!!

 

[_scorpio_]

if there is no sign you have been there and no damage that wont take at the most a few weeks to repair or isn't going to have much effect if you do it often, then what's the problem? you will only get moved on if found.
personally i dislike doing things illegaly because it restricts what can be done on the land so i get permission and use the land often and get to know the land owner (or buy the land ).

 

[Toddy]

i would never destroy the thing i love by going into the woods and randomly felling trees, and absolutely despise anybody that does. But I really don't feel that anybody in this world can say that camping and living off of the land for a few days is illegal, in areas which are not privately owned as long as it is done sustainably.

freedom is not the choices between what job and what car, nobody should have that much power over the land, I believe it should be like the right to roam law!

never feel bad for doing a good stealth night, even if you get caught (there's not enough of them on here)

want to hear your views on this one, and if were like minded I believe unity is they way forward!!!

Mod hat firmly on.

Firstly, welcome to the forum
We have very few rules but I would ask that you now please go and read the guidelines.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45

Secondly, BcUK will not encourage or promote illegal activity, that includes camping in areas where not allowed.
Too many folks have worked too hard to gain permissions for us to contemplate causing them grief, and Tony (the forum owner) doesn't need any hassle over this either.

Thirdly, we ask that the major fractious topics are not discussed on the forum; no politics, no religion, and no racism.

Your understanding would be appreciated.

Toddy

 

[phill_ue]

I had an email a work today about an article that talked about the right to roam, the right to collect wild foods in public areas and how uprooting plants being illegal all came about because unscrupulous people were digging up orchids and bluebells and selling them on.

This means, by rights, if you forage on land that belongs to somebody (which all land does) then you can be prosecuted for theft. Same goes for uprooting any plant, off to jail. It is a case of lazy lawmakers not doing their homework and just making laws that catch all.

Personally, I'm with the guy that was showcased in Cook on the Wild Side who trespasses with impunity and forages. I probably wouldn't go so far as he does though, but land that is accessible, IMO belongs to us all and I will forage. On the other hand, I will not rape the land and take everything, and maybe that is what most people would do.

 

[Paul_B]

All land is owned in the UK so without permission from the owner or representative or leaseholder means you have not got the right to do what you are doing. Subject to the rights of way and access where they apply. Sorry but you simply do not have the rights that you wish you had and quite simply it was lost a long time ago with the enclosure act. Live with it and don't stir things up. I am sure there are land owners on here and people who have obtained permissions from land owners before who probably don't appreciate your comments.

The bushcraft activities IMHO do lend themselves to gaining permissions from land owners being based on more locationally based activities. Backpacking and accompanying wild camping does not in that you are moving across land owned by several landowners and the land owning situation can be confused over the land you are passing. Who owns which field / wild land? At which point do you cross over into another estate? Woods (if I'm right about this) are generally more easy to find the owner.

 

[rik_uk3]

If I'd spent a lot money on buying land (or for that matter inherited it) I may well be miffed to find people camping it. While the OP may feel that nobody should have power over the land he's wrong; someone owns it and I would always ask first and above all respect the wishes of the owner; if the answer is 'No' then don't moan just move on and ask somewhere else.

Even well meaning 'bushcrafters' can strip an area of dead wood and game in double quick time when the area is used a lot.

 

[Broch]

Personally, I'm with the guy that was showcased in Cook on the Wild Side who trespasses with impunity and forages. I probably wouldn't go so far as he does though, but land that is accessible, IMO belongs to us all and I will forage. On the other hand, I will not rape the land and take everything, and maybe that is what most people would do.

Unfortunately, with 60 million people living on this Island, if every one did as you are proposing the land would be raped. So, it's only acceptable because there are relatively few of us that do it but there are areas that are over-foraged already. If I am honest I regret the increase in popularity of 'foraging'; our natural world on this overcrowded island is very fragile especially if some of those trying it have little sympathy for its fragility.

Just my 2 peenceworth

Cheers,

Broch

 

[stickler]

How far could this go though? Perhaps you could set up a tent in my front garden, LOL!

There are laws relating to such matters, whether Bye-laws, Common Law, Civil Law, or law of Statute relating to the liability of owners of land etc. Overall, it's quite a big issue.

Landowners can 'protect/guard' their land very possessively.....as I discovered recently when walking on a bridle path with my young dog. He's being trained to flush pheasants and twice ventured under a fence onto grassland to follow a scent just a few feet on the grass. Within seconds the farmer/landowner roared across the field on a quad bike, threatened to shoot my dog if it worried his sheep etc. When I replied that my dog had been trained to accept sheep and other farm animals he scoffed and said that if only he'd had a £1 for every dog-owner who'd said such things.

I also said that his sheep were in any event on the far side of the (enormous) field but he then went on about my dog (a 9 month old puppy) joining up with other dogs to become a wild pack which could be led by a sheep-chasing dog to destroy his lambs! (I wonder how many times in all his years as a farmer he's actually had dogs worry his sheep!)

He then went on about my dog disturbing the wildlife in the hedges either side of the bridle path (which is outside the field fence!) and the fact that his gamekeeper would be most upset. I said something about not having seen any feed hoppers etc near the boundaries as the keeper probably wanted his birds in the drives elsewhere, and probably 'dogged-in' the hedges before a shoot so the birds retuned to land near their release pen and he then said that as I obviously knew something about country life I should have understood and kept my dog on a lead at all times.

I didn't trespass on his land. I didn't send my dog onto his land. I have every respect for land ownership. My dog was introduced to sheep and other farm animals on 6 different farms at a very young age and will walk through a field of them with no problem. He was raised on a farm small-holding with loads of other animals and birds. But, he was within his rights to ask me to keep my dog off his land....though the way he did so was quite threatening and nasty. (There was quite a lot more 'discussion' but I can't recollect all of it now).

I will return with a video camera to record what happens when anyone walks past his massive farm house......an his 3 dogs arrive at high speed as a snarling, barking pack which concerned me, let alone my daughter. They seemed really vicious.

I have since heard other stories from local dog-walkers who have been harrassed in much worse ways and in every case he's threatened to use his shotgun.

In all such cases, 'reasonableness' should be the key.....and if he shot my dog it would almost certainly be considered unreasonable......as many keepers, beaters & guns would testify that my dog has never chased anything.....just flushed pheasants and partridges. Though I'm not sure I wouldn't end up in court if he did shoot my dog.....cos I'd probably lose my rag!!!

The Law exists to control and restrict people/actions and to ensure that we all meet certain standards - for the benefit of all. My question is always one of 'interpretation' of those laws and the application of common sense/circumstances.

Most field entrances near me are now blocked my massive tree stumps and blocks of concrete. Not far away there is a country park which is secured by gates and locks.....yet a group of gypsies/pikies used cutting equipment to try to gain access. There are many instances of such people causing chaos.

Yet there is a well-spoken 'Romany' with his Romany wife (truly) who has often camped nearby, is accepted by all of us (and I take knives, machettes etc to him for sharpenning - not cos I can't do it myself but cos it's easier...and helps him) .....and whenever they leave their pitch they make sure it's spotless, apart from the wheelmarks and fire residue.

His actions are reasonable and acceptable - but some people's are not...and they ruin it for the rest of us.

My 18 year-old daughter watched me open a farm gate recently, followed me through and then failed to close the gate herself! How many visitors to land would drop similar faux-pas?

I understand where you are coming from, but I think it's probably not workable/acceptable because there is such a difference in knowledge and understanding in the big wide world.

Stickler

 

[gowersponger]

ive been camping out lately with no trouble i look at it like this ,, what would the old bill do if they got a call for someone camping ? all i can see them saying is come on mate move on weve had a complaint, even if they did nick you and it ended up in court the judge would probaly think ,hold on the man was camping not comiting a crime?
as long as you arent roud to the pigs the bacon should be sweet lol

 

[stickler]

ive been camping out lately with no trouble i look at it like this ,, what would the old bill do if they got a call for someone camping ? all i can see them saying is come on mate move on weve had a complaint, even if they did nick you and it ended up in court the judge would probaly think ,hold on the man was camping not comiting a crime?
as long as you arent roud to the pigs the bacon should be sweet lol

Well, unless you are camping on ground such as that occupied by railways, there is probably nothing that the police could do, cos AFAIAA trespass is not yet a crime (in most cases) ....it's a civil offence.

Trespass is actionable 'per se'...... i.e. there doesn't have to be any damage to the property. The mere fact that you are trespassing (occupying someone else's land) is sufficient for an action to succeed).

And, as I implied in an earlier post, should I or anyone else accept that people can occupy my front garden and pitch their tent?! Perhaps they could link in to my electric supply via their 'caravan' cable?!


Stickler

 

[rik_uk3]

Its all a matter of respect, how can you expect landowners to show respect and courtesy to campers when the campers just turn up, do what they want and not give a toss to the outcome of any confrontation?

 

[Broch]

As an owner of a small wood I would get extremely cross if someone just came in and camped without asking. My wood has fantastic biodiversity and that deadwood log that you thought you would burn because it was of no use was actually a home to a huge range of invertebrates that themsleves support a range of birds and mammals. And that little group of Birch Boletus you thought you'd eat was left there on purpose to spore and spread.

It is a little arrogant to believe that because you are a 'bushcrafter' you know what should and should not be taken from the land when others (especially the landowner or the custodian) have other plans.

Broch

 

[British Red]

As an owner of a small wood I would get extremely cross if someone just came in and camped without asking. My wood has fantastic biodiversity and that deadwood log that you thought you would burn because it was of no use was actually a home to a huge range of invertebrates that themsleves support a range of birds and mammals. And that little group of Birch Boletus you thought you'd eat was left there on purpose to spore and spread.

It is a little arrogant to believe that because you are a 'bushcrafter' you know what should and should not be taken from the land when others (especially the landowner or the custodian) have other plans.

Broch

Exactly that Broch. The fact that you have worked hard and I suspect gone without other things to buy a piece of land which you are now working to improve and encourage wildlife does not give someone who has not invested one plenny in the land or one drop of sweat in improving and maintaining it to wander on to it and use the "fallen wood" (brushpile left for hedgehogs winter quarters) etc.


I'm sure all sorts of lawbreakers "don't believe in the law".

Red

 

[phill_ue]

I understand the laws, I don't need to be preached at about it! We re grown up people, nd regardless of this forums' stance on what can and cannot be done, I will make my own decisions in life and pay the consequences of my actions if they occur.

The fact remains, I garb a few 'shrooms if I see them on the trail, but don't take them all. I grab some ramsons by a stream that doe not get visited by people, I do not clear the area out and probably gather less than a quarter of a bag per year. I more often than not grab a few flowering heads to chuck in a sarnie. I'll maybe grab a few jack by the hedge leaves for the same thing and this year want to try out plantain seeds in some form. I am careful of the resources I use, I coppice correctly and try to gather all of my materials sympathetically. I assure you that my sources are so far off the beaten path that only people that I show will know I have taken from there. The alternative is to let good food rot away and the coppices to fall apart under their own weight. I personally believe that to be a bigger crime.

 

[Wayland]

ive been camping out lately with no trouble i look at it like this ,, what would the old bill do if they got a call for someone camping ? all i can see them saying is come on mate move on weve had a complaint, even if they did nick you and it ended up in court the judge would probaly think ,hold on the man was camping not comiting a crime?
as long as you arent roud to the pigs the bacon should be sweet lol

I have had to call in the old bill on campers on our local moorland recently.

They had cut down trees for their fire and when they ran out they destroyed an old post and rail fence too.

When I turned up on the scene walking my dog, they were sleeping off the contents of the many broken bottles that were scattered over a thirty yard radius so they woke up to the sound of fixed penalty tickets (£80) being issued and their details being handed on to the council for civil proceedings for the damaged fence.

I'm all for freedom, but with every great freedom comes great responsibilities too.

 

[phill_ue]

I have had to call in the old bill on campers on our local moorland recently.

They had cut down trees for their fire and when they ran out they destroyed an old post and rail fence too.

When I turned up on the scene walking my dog, they were sleeping off the contents of the many broken bottles that were scattered over a thirty yard radius so they woke up to the sound of fixed penalty tickets (£80) being issued and their details being handed on to the council for civil proceedings for the damaged fence.

I'm all for freedom, but with every great freedom comes great responsibilities too.

And that is fair justice for their lack of respect for the natural environment.

 

[helixpteron]

I'm sure all sorts of lawbreakers "don't believe in the law".

This is a very good point, very well put.

As such, its worth repeating.

 

[Martyn]

I understand the laws, I don't need to be preached at about it! We re grown up people, nd regardless of this forums' stance on what can and cannot be done, I will make my own decisions in life and pay the consequences of my actions if they occur.

Sounds like you mean "if you get caught"?

 

[poddle]

I understand the laws, I don't need to be preached at about it! We re grown up people, nd regardless of this forums' stance on what can and cannot be done, I will make my own decisions in life and pay the consequences of my actions if they occur.

The fact remains, I garb a few 'shrooms if I see them on the trail, but don't take them all. I grab some ramsons by a stream that doe not get visited by people, I do not clear the area out and probably gather less than a quarter of a bag per year. I more often than not grab a few flowering heads to chuck in a sarnie. I'll maybe grab a few jack by the hedge leaves for the same thing and this year want to try out plantain seeds in some form. I am careful of the resources I use, I coppice correctly and try to gather all of my materials sympathetically. I assure you that my sources are so far off the beaten path that only people that I show will know I have taken from there. The alternative is to let good food rot away and the coppices to fall apart under their own weight. I personally believe that to be a bigger crime.

Sorry mate but you are exactly the pain in the proverbial that is making my life hell at the moment, and you risk getting killed or injured.
Land is private and for a reason. I carry out regular pest control on land that is being illegally used by people just like yourself.
I use firearms to control pests, and having people like you suddenly waltz though the land totally unaware that I have been there for many hours waiting to remove a fox that has been killing chickens is totally infuriating.

You would not be so smart if you caught a .243 through the head would you? I suppose that would be my fault then wouldn't it?

Your ignorance is dangerous and certainly incredibly annoying to those of us that are trying to carry out legitimate jobs.
Can I suggest that you get permission before entering ground that you have absolutely know knowledge of?, or the delicate balance of it's biodiversity

Others have important jobs to do on intensive farm land( of which there is no right to roam), and feel rather peeved when someone screws up three hours work because they want to skip through waving their mushroom basket around like Dale Winton on alma nitrate.

Don't mess with things that you don't understand, and stay within the law.

 

[helixpteron]

Others have important jobs to do on intensive farm land( of which there is no right to roam), and feel rather peeved when someone screws up three hours work because they want to skip through waving their mushroom basket around like Dale Winton on alma nitrate.

Don't mess with things that you don't understand, and stay within the law.

You were doing well until your apparently homophobic remark about Dale Winton.

Incidentally, its Amyl Nitrite.