Knives/knife law.

[KenThis]

I know this is an emotive topic and my starting a thread like this may cause some argument.
However I've been thinking about this subject on and off for a while now and I think I'm further from a personal conclusion I'm happy with now than when I started.
I'd be very interested in opinions if people can stay on topic, stay civil/respectful and not get overly confrontational.
I think it would also help if people try to limit themselves to making one point at a time, so that other people with an opposing view have a chance at debating actual points made and it doesn't end up as a flame war.
Also from those overseas I apologise in advance as this is mainly about the UK.

So I'm really torn.
On the one hand I like knives, I enjoy handling them, I enjoy looking at them. I have an appreciation for them aesthetically. This sometimes includes weapons, daggers, swords etc. and fantasy weapons (Hellize's work I think is truly awesome). I do not currently own any knives that aren't practical, mostly due to cost but also because I appreciate there is a stigma attached to owning such knives/blades in the UK. I think I'm quite liberal and generally believe that people should be allowed to do as they please as long as they are not hurting anybody. I look at the current knife laws and the proposed changes and am a little dismayed. I believe I am a rational and responsible adult and it would be nice to be able own and use/play with some knives that I like without possible legal ramifications or adverse public scrutiny.

However I look at the society we live in and I also appreciate that there is a subset of people I do not want to have ready access to knives/blades. I look at some knives/blades and think that there would be no reason to own such a thing let alone to be able to carry it. I'm sure this is in part due to conditioning, I grew up being told that knives should never be used as toys/weapons, but it is also because I've seen the damage caused by a stanley knife wielded with intent. It seems very clear to me that by criminalising owning certain knives then there must necessarily be fewer of those knives available. By making it illegal to carry certain knives then there are obviously not as many people with knives in their pockets. Taken together then I believe that there must be less knife crime thanks to current legislation, which can only be a good thing. Please don't get me wrong I am aware that if anyone wanted an effective bladed weapon they could just get a kitchen knife. However I do believe that if certain knives were more ubiquitous then there would be more people carrying them, more potential situations for knives to be used and therefore more knife crime.

So here's the seeming dichotomy, I'd be very interested in what people think, especially if any others kind of feel the same way.

 

[crosslandkelly]

 

[snappingturtle]

It is the will not the tool that is the problem, you can kill with your hands alone. banning is cheap law it looks like you did something but the real ill never changes, enforcement of the law as we have it would be the way to go, and if you must why not a carry permit ? then they could make money off it too the Gov love to make money off us!

 

[daveO]

The thing with the kitchen knife argument is that kitchen knives aren't designed to be carried. So while they can be used just as easily for knife crime a folding pocket knife is more likely to be carried and more likely to be used. Of course if you take away all the folding knives criminals will use whatever knife they can find, or sharpened screwdriver, or pointy stick.

I can understand and sympathise with your point of view on this as there is no easy answer. What we need are laws that allow the police to deal with criminals who use knives and to allow them to confiscate knives before they are used but at the same time still allowing and trusting responsible citizens to carry and use these tools in the correct way. We also need police that are capable of telling the difference between a drug dealer with a flick knife and an average person with a leatherman. It always comes back to the Leatherman problem for me. It's a crazy system where law abiding people become criminals for carrying a useful tool. It should be part of our culture that we're encouraged to carry tools and be able to look after ourselves and fix things that break. It wasn't so long ago that it would have been more unusual for people not to have a pocket knife. I'm sure almost everyone on here has used their knife in public at some point and been asked why they carry it. I've even had people ask if I have a knife so they can use it to open something and then ask the usual "why have you got a knife?".

So who do you blame? The lawyers for messing up our laws? The parents who don't bring their kids up right? The movies? The Daily Mail for scaremongering? In the end it doesn't matter as it isn't something that you can fix. We debate the difference between a kitchen knife and a SAK while there's been another school shooting today in the US using a legal assault rifle.

 

[Janne]

I like knives. I love guns. I love fishing and hunting. (think of it as killing sentient creatures).
Yes, I confess.

But, hand on heart, the only knife I really, really need is one without a point and with a cutting edge of maybe 5 cm or so.
( I do not need to fish or hunt for survival.)

I believe that a couple of the street crime recently was done with kitchen knives?

I also believe that the crimes are done by people using any available implement.

Nobody in media has mentioned or discussed a ban on Acid?

 

[Janne]

When I was a kid we lived for two years in a refugee camp outside Napoli (Capua di Santa Maria Vetere) , in Italy. One day I found a flick knife, and kept it. Dad found it.
Gave me a good slap, took it, pressed the button so it opened and broke the blade against a wall.
Told me to stay away from crap and never keep anything without his permission.
The next day he took me to an ironmonger in Napoli and bought me my first folder. And started teaching me knife usage and what you guys call bushcrafting.

50 years ago this year, and I still remember it.
Lesson was if you need a knife, have a usable one but only when you need it.

 

[brambles]

25 years as a criminal defence solicitor and I could count the amount of cases I've dealt with where an offender uses or carries anything other than a kitchen knife or ultra cheap stanley type blade on my fingers.

 

[daveO]

I like knives. I love guns. I love fishing and hunting. (think of it as killing sentient creatures).
Yes, I confess.

But, hand on heart, the only knife I really, really need is one without a point and with a cutting edge of maybe 5 cm or so.
( I do not need to fish or hunt for survival.)

I believe that a couple of the street crime recently was done with kitchen knives?

I also believe that the crimes are done by people using any available implement.

Nobody in media has mentioned or discussed a ban on Acid?

The restriction of the sale of acid to under 18s is being debated along with the new knife law amendments. It's interesting though that you can be almost more menacing these days by threatening someone with a cup of water or even an empty plastic bottle than you can be wielding a large knife. Tell them it's got acid in it and they won't argue.

'Need' is a massively relative issue. I use my SAK for 99% of my non-eating knife needs on a daily basis and even then I bet most of the time I have access to a scissors or other tool that would do the job. Yet I see videos on Youtube of (usually American) people carrying 4 or 5 knives/multitools all at the same time. Those guys must do a lot of cutting.

 

[Fadcode]

It is not sensible to blame the weapon for a crime, it is the person who commits the crime, we could ban all knives, and then knitting needles, screwdrivers, sharp pencils, etc, etc, etc,if a person wants to inflict injury on someone they will find a way, whether it be a brick, piece of glass, or anything they can lay their hands on, beer glasses they can be very dangerous when in the hands of a drumk, there is no silver bullet (providing they aren't banned) to the ills of society, maybe we should be asking what turns someone into a villain, is it society itself, is it the lack of hope, is it too much violence on tv, banning knives will not solve the problem.

 

[Janne]

I wonder what the Law (=Police) would say if you had a flint knife on you?

I

 

[Robson Valley]

You might not even recognize my flint knives for what they are. Not knapped, no hafted handle.
Those pretty things are no advantage for preparing food such as raw meat.

Just "first strike" flakes about the length of a finger and 15 mm at the widest, maybe 3-5 mm thick along the spine.
Easily as sharp as, if not better, that any kitchen steel. Why? The flint broke along a row of molecules and
that's an impossibility for any steel. Not slippery with blood or water (surprise there).

Absolute delight to chunk up a big bison roast for a braised meat & root veg dinner main course.

Quite frankly, I don't like the risk of even the idea of carrying one in my pocket.

 

[snappingturtle]

I wonder what the Law (=Police) would say if you had a flint knife on you?

I

Same problem as anything sharp, I have a prehistoric shark tooth for man bling also could be a problem if seen as a weapon, are rules seem to come from the mind of children, rule is simple fear and reward.

 

[Nice65]

I wonder what the Law (=Police) would say if you had a flint knife on you?

I

Fixed blade, needs good reason to carry.

Could we keep acid attacks, or attacks generally, out of the thread? This one could run and run and we might get something out of it in terms of people's perception of knives. It will quickly deteriorate if we start ranting.

 

[Janne]

I doubt we will. The people freqventing this forum like knives.
Like to own, like to use. Some are very good at even making them!

I wonder if there is one, just one, member here that does not like, wear and use one?

 

[Robson Valley]

Do your very best to find a flint blade, even to borrow, and prepare a meal in your own kitchen.
A paleo pleasure in this day and time. Unlike any steel you have ever used.

 

[sunndog]

25 years as a criminal defence solicitor and I could count the amount of cases I've dealt with where an offender uses or carries anything other than a kitchen knife or ultra cheap stanley type blade on my fingers.

Nuff said really

How many stabbings happen in prison?........but there are no knives!

 

[sunndog]

I doubt we will. The people freqventing this forum like knives.
Like to own, like to use. Some are very good at even making them!

I wonder if there is one, just one, member here that does not like, wear and use one?

I'v seen a lot of anti knife/skewed perception posts on here.....remember the guy who "felt threatened" by all those people openly carrying knives at a bushcraft show?

 

[Fadcode]

I wonder what the Law (=Police) would say if you had a flint knife on you?

I

This would depend on whether the police actually realised it was a flint knife, and they would probably only know that if it was used in a threatening manner, anything and I mean anything can be used as a weapon, a walking stick if used to strike someone is then a weapon, a lot of knife use depends on attitude,if challenged by the police regarding carrying a knife, it is best to stay calm, irrespective of how right you think you are in carrying the knife, obviously it is much better if the knife is stowed away out of site at the bottom of your rucksack until it is needed, we all know there are exceptions to the law regarding carrying a knife, but if the Police think you are in the wrong all the shouting in the world will not change their minds, even if they are proved at a later stage they were technically wrong.

Carrying a knife at any time, whether up in the mountains or deep in a forest, means acting responsibly, to ourselves as well as to others.

We unfortunately live in a world where everything seems to be challenged, nursery rythmes, films about rabbits, I have just seen on TV that scientists are saying household cleaning fluids are causing more harm to the environment than car emmisions, people are willing through the net to jump on anything anyone, the more responsible we are the less the threat from outsiders.
If you dont show, they wont know

 

[KenThis]

Playing Devil's Advocate a bit.

I understand how anything can be used as a weapon and people can be attacked/stabbed with any number of common implements - where there is a will there is a way - even in prison.
However compare gunshot fatalities with countries that allow civilians to have guns compared to countries where firearms are not as prevalent.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But guns make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people when compared to not having guns.

It seems obvious to me that a subset of people would never use a knife as a weapon unless fearful of their life, another subset would carry and be willing to use any weapon no matter what. However there must be a subset of society who could possibly be provoked to use a knife as a weapon all to easily and not having a weapon to hand helps prevent those people from doing harm.

I don't know enough about how the laws have changed and how different knives have contributed to different crimes. But my feeling is that back in the day with mods and rockers, some people carried blades and flick knives and there were more knife attacks. Obviously one would have to try to research the numbers to know if this is true.

 

[santaman2000]

Playing Devil's Advocate a bit.

I understand how anything can be used as a weapon and people can be attacked/stabbed with any number of common implements - where there is a will there is a way - even in prison.
However compare gunshot fatalities with countries that allow civilians to have guns compared to countries where firearms are not as prevalent.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. But guns make it a hell of a lot easier to kill people when compared to not having guns.

It seems obvious to me that a subset of people would never use a knife as a weapon unless fearful of their life, another subset would carry and be willing to use any weapon no matter what. However there must be a subset of society who could possibly be provoked to use a knife as a weapon all to easily and not having a weapon to hand helps prevent those people from doing harm.....

You just made the real point. Yes, statistics show the presence of knives (or guns) is related to the amount of crimes with them. The mistake is in two assumptions:
1) Assuming which one causes the other, and
2) Assuming that laws have any real effect on access.

As has been stated about prisons (I worked in jails and prisons for over a decade) Weapons are completely banned for inmates and we search them frequently (several time a day) but every inmate on the compound has at least one knife and some have guns.

Likewise schools are weapon free zones.