Knife advice

[tedw]

As a bushcraft newcomer, can I get some informed advice on choosing a suitable knife, please. I'm in the Forces and in the field I've usually carried a USAF Pilot's Survival Knife (which has had the secondary bevel ground out to help it keep a good edge – it replaced a K-Bar which was too big) and a Leatherman. I've also carried a golok and/or folding saw as seemed useful. I'm now getting into bushcraft and am booked onto Woodlore's beginners' course next year. I've been reading all the usual books and surfing the appropriate web-sites and am getting the idea that the USAF knife may be too big and clumsy for bushcraft use.

Bushcraft “experts” generally seem to favour the lighter Nordic-type blades in high carbon steel, but the review of the Lapp Puukko seems to suggest the stainless steel version could be a good buy, especially as JSL Wednesbury have still got a couple of the stainless steel ones on offer.

I’ve not got a lot of cash to spare after paying for the course, so should I:

a. Be saving up for a “proper” Woodlore knife at (ouch) £195-00?

b. Wait and use the Mora knife that Woodlore “issue” to students (and do I get to keep it?)?

c. Buy the bargain stainless steel puukko?

d. Stick with the good old USAF knife?

e. Do something else altogether?

Help!

 

[MartiniDave]

I'm quite pleased with the Helle "Eggen" that I'm using at present, bought from Heinnie Heynes for about £35. I've got a Mora too, which is an excellent knife, but I ditched the sheath and made my own leather one instead.

When are you doing your course next year? I'm booked on one 9th to 15th May.

Cheers,

Dave

 

[tedw]

Thanks, Dave. For various reasons I'm now doing the beginners course in May 2005 (!) followed by the Journeyman course in that September - glutton for punishment!

JSL Wednesbury have now sold out of the stainless steel Isakki 5226 puukkos they had on offer. They offered me an Isakki "Tika" (?) at £18-00 (+ £2.50 postage) instead, which they said was similar but I can't find any details of it.

The Helle knives sound good - is there anywhere I could actually see and handle any of these things?

Ted

 

[harry]

Thanks, Dave. For various reasons I'm now doing the beginners course in May 2005 (!) followed by the Journeyman course in that September - glutton for punishment!


Ted

2005 :yikes: that's ages away, you should consider going with another school. AS far as I know Ray does not teach the beginners course but he would be there for the Journeyman. You could do you first course with Woodlore, woodcraft or one of the other schools. These guys were all Rays chief instructors for a few years.

Anyway, up to you but :yikes: 2005

 

[MartiniDave]

Ted,

I've never seen Helle knives in any shop so far. There are pretty good tests over on

http://outdoors.free.fr

Dave

 

[tedw]

Thanks to both of you. Yeh, May 2005 is yonks away, but it's nobody's fault as I am not going to be free to do it until then. Woodlore were very helpful, in fact, letting me book onto the 2005 courses as soon as they had dates and before they're even published on the web-site.

And I don't mind that Ray himself is not teaching - I'd like to meet the guy, but I don't think he is the bushcraft God! LoL!

Now there's no rush to get a new knife, I'll keep looking - but I'd still like an opinion on the suitability of the USAF knife. Anyone?

 

[Ed]

Hi tedw... and welcome to the wonderful world of bushcraft :-D

You are quite right when you say that most bushcrafters tend to like a smaller lighter nordic style blade. Its a case of 'right tool for the right job' If you need to chop wood for example you probably need an axe.... not a bigger knife :-D
You will probably find that most of us here when out in the field carry both an axe and a folding saw for big tough work, so only a small knife is needed as the axe takes care of most of the 'heavy' chores.

And so onto your questions.
---
a. Be saving up for a “proper” Woodlore knife at (ouch) £195-00?

Nothing wrong with saving... even if you don't get a woodlore, £200 in the bank can never be a bad thing. After your courses and experience etc you will have a better idea if the woodlore knife is for you.
---
b. Wait and use the Mora knife that Woodlore “issue” to students (and do I get to keep it?)?

These are excellent blades. A couple of hours with a sharpening stone to get to the good steel and these things are razor sharp. More than adequate for most work in the field and for around £10... no complaints.
Maybe get one as a backup if you get a more expensive knife.
---
c. Buy the bargain stainless steel puukko?

Again, another good option.. but be warned, this does not have a finger guard, the handle swells at the palm giving a good grip to work with, so be sure you are confident with your knife skills before using one.... accidents do happen.
---
d. Stick with the good old USAF knife?

A knife is only as good as the person using it.... so there is nothing wrong with sticking with this.... but after your courses you may change 'what you want in a knife' and you may find the USAF doesn't fit your requirements anymore.
---
e. Do something else altogether?

I would recommend the Fallkniven f1. Just because of the amount of abuse it can take, very solid, good blade and a joy to use.
--------------

so all in all its down to what you want. A good test is to go out in the field and carve a sppon. Spoon carving uses most knife cuts you will use in the field, so if it carves a sppon well, it will probably make a good utility knife. Try it with your USAF and try with a smaller knife and see which you prefer.

Hope this has been some help.
Ed

 

[tedw]

Thanks, Ed, very useful advice and much food for thought.

Others have recommended the FALLKNIVEN F1 as well, so I'll definitely take look at that.

Thanks again.

Ted W

 

[Anonymous]

Hello there,

I am the guy from http://outdoors.free.fr, I just followed some referers to here, Great site BTW, I loved your articles (specially the one about fast-- at least some one that knows what he is talking about!) and review sections, so I have referenced this link back.

I love the puukkos in General.

The woodlore seems a good knife (never handled one) but what a price.

There are a few good knives that are suitable:

The Helle knives are great. They may however not be very great with a firesteel, because the outer layers are rally soft stainless steel.

The Moras are surely one of the best values for the price (though a bit plastic) KJ Ericsson does some great knives at cool prices. Most of the KJ ericsson have a guard:

http://********.free.fr/guest/kj1.jpg
http://********.free.fr/guest/kj2000.jpg

The Fallkniven F1 is a good knife. (this one was rehandled in wood)
http://********.free.fr/guest/F1.jpg

The EKAs plays in the Fallkniven category, just they are abit less plastic:
http://********.free.fr/guest/eka.jpg

The Grohmanns are Ok too, and very light
http://********.free.fr/guest/grohmann.jpg

In the puukko category, you can find some nice original finnish blades for arround 25-30 Euros. wood and leather, the will not have a guard, buyt that is just a question of getting used to it.

I personally like the scandinavian grind a lot (puukkos, woodlore). The scandinavian grind is when you have a huge edge bevel, taht goes down to the edge, they generally cut straight are are very very sharp. Convex blades are also very good in wood.

This is a convex small marble.
http://********.free.fr/guest/marble2.jpg


I do not think a good knife needs to be expensive, nor does it need to be too big, Axes, hatchets, machetes, or goloks / parangs do the big work much better.

Sorry, could not resist to enter a post. I love knives, and love being outdoors too,I hope you do not mind the intrusion.

Cheers from France,
Jean-Marc

 

[Anonymous]

I forgot to say that I'd backup any of these fixed blades with a small swiss knife or an Opinel. gears can be lost.

 

[Anonymous]

Helle Eggen

Another Helle

Mauri Poylio, 30 euro

Iisakki Jarvenspaa 20 euro

Home made from a karesuando 12c27 blade, etched in ferric chloride, re-bevelled, and handled in mapple burl, with a very personal handle design. Price without the work, around 15-20 euro.
http://********.free.fr/guest/kare4.jpg

 

[tedw]

Jean-Marc, thank you very much and WoW! Plenty here to consider and I loved the pictures!

Looks like you get a pretty wide choice of quality knives in France.

Ted W

 

[Ed]

Some nice pics there I love the wooden handled Fallkniven F1, who did it? / where did you get it?.... very nice....

Ed

 

[Anonymous]

Hey there.

your post struck a cord with me because i was in your position once and had similar questions.

I did the Woodlore fundamental two years ago and the journeyman last october. All great fun.

After the fundamental I treated myself to the woodlore knife. It is outstanding and is worth the money. I use the woodlore knife a fair bit, but I also use the Mora knives which are very good.

If I were you I would do the following:

1. Buy a Mora training knife before the course and get used to sharpening it and using it. They'll give you another but it is worth having a spare.

2. Buy an Axe. A Gransfors small forest axe is a tool that is worth having and knowing how to use.

3. Buy a Sandvick folding/locking saw.

4. Save up for a Woodlore knife or similarbut dont buy it until you have been on your course. your opinions WILL change as your knowledge increases.

Good Luck

Baz

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Ted, Ed

Cool, glad you liked the pictures, a picture is often woth a thousand words. The choice is vast, and it is difficult to tell this knife is better than this one. A knife is a very personal thing. Personally I like them when they have a reasonable price (some of the blades I showed here were paid 9 Euros!). I prefer wood and leather to plastic, but again this is very personal. The Scandinavian edge is very good for carving, (read that as a more classical term for bush craft) because it is designed as such.
What is sure is that I can hardly justify any blade bigger than 12 cm, either in usage, or because it would just frighten too many people, police included! I often carry a fixed blade, but rarely attached to my belt, more often in a pocket or pack. So too bad for the US bowies and the like (I own some, never uses them!).


Most of these knives you will not find in France, the only pieces I got in france are the Massano, Mauri poylio, Plazen and F1. The rest came through exchanges, or was bought to net vendors.

One address I recommend is http://www.tool-shop.com or http://www.toolshop.de, these guys are great, the prices are transport in EU included, generally arrives 4-5 days after order.

I did the F1 myself. cut the handle with a cutter (it is all it takes! -- there was a bit of rust under...), then I used sculptor gouges to cut the place for the tang into tho slabs of cocobolo, epoxied them together, and then shaped the handle: here are some more pictures:

and hese is my A1, whose blade got convexed, and handle changed. This knife came for factory totally unusable. It would not cut (saucisson (dried saussage) because the edge wat too thick and obtuse. It stayed like that a few years until I picked up the grinder...

now on a slightly different but complementary subject,

For jungle work, and bush cleaning / small tree work, what I would recommend is a Survival Golok from australian based Valiant Company. (http://www.valiantco.com)

It is something like this (bottom one):

it is from indonesian origine, All horn and ironwood sheath, for 50$ ! + some 15 transport. Blades are differentially tempered, and we have used them here in France on all sorts of woods, but also in Canada, beleive us or not you can cut 3 to 4" saplings without feeling a thing, and they keep the distance up. I'd carry a golok or a Parang anytime instead of a hatchet, it is the same weight, but much more versatile. Funny enough, these guys also do Damascus blades (called Pamor, it is a dama stacked vertically insteat of horizontally, and they do work very well too.

another smalleer Golok (10")

Don't be mistaken, these are very high quality blades, they would outcut a US army machete or a martingdale anytime, and some, like a parang lading can also get a tree down. The main common point though is high ergonomics, you hardly ever get tired!.

For the fun, here is a bowie from valiant, the wooden sheath is home made. (9"blade)

and here is a HUGE parang (the bowie is 9" bladed)

Anyway, as you can see I do have some really big stuff, and I do think 4" is the practical maximum to carry on myself.


Next on my list is either the Gransfors Bruck Small Forest Axe, or the Roselli long axe (they are actually the same size)

here is a japanese saw, big model, and a SFA and a Roselli.

The roselli may seem to have a strange shape, but it shows an amazing cutting power, better than the SFA in hard wood, just slightly under in softer wood. It is an extremely thick bevel and is excellent for planning and shaping wood, where the SFA, which is a linbing axe is not good at all. The roselli is simply the most versatile axe I have met so far. (but a GB is 45 euro, a Roselli is some 80)

And of course, the good old Opinels are the rolls royce of the cheap disposable knife, and I am always amazed to see what a # 12 can do.

Hey don't be frightened, I think that now you have seen all blades I like.

Last thing, I have a Safety article there, please read it, and stay out of trouble:

http://outdoors.free.fr/s_article.php?id_article=11


All the best from Nice, and have a good week,
Jean-Marc

 

[bigjackbrass]

It's been said several times already, but the Mora knives are excellent for the money. I bought one on-line, from Tacklebargains I think, and like the utilitarian simplicity of it. This is a knife I'm not afraid to use and experiment with. I generally believe that the best kit repays the investment (best not always being most expensive or fanciest), but for less than ten quid a Mora knife will let you get to know what you really like and need without breaking the bank. And yes, we all need a good spare knife, for outdoors or the toolbox.

 

[tedw]

Phew! :-D Thanks for all the good advice - I think I'll wait for the course before making a final decision, but I've been reading around and looking at the knives that have been recommended as well as others. This has left me with a few further basic questions:

1. Many of the recommended knives (Fallkniven F1, EKA Nordic W11) are in stainless steel of one sort or another, but the general advice on bushcraft knives seems to be to go for high carbon steel. Am I getting (more) confused or is there a real difference?

2. What about edge profile? Most seem to recommend the nordic-type single bevel (I ground out the secondary bevel on my USAF knife to make this sort of wedge-shape and it seems pretty good) but how do I spot it if the dealer's write-up is not specific. For example, from the catalogue photographs, the EKA Nordic W11 clearly has the nordic edge but it's not so obvious on the Fallkniven F1. What about the flat grind on the much-praised Cold Steel Master Hunter?

3. Are coatings like the black teflon available on the Fallkniven F1 worth having or do they get in the way of "proper" sharpening? Are blackened knives just too military for the bushcraft world? :-D

Over to you experts!

Ted W

 

[Keith_Beef]

Well, Jean-Marc, you have so many banana trees in your garden, that you can use them for blade tests?

Thanks a lot for showing that Mauri Poylion puukko. My wife bought me a very similar one, but didn't make a note ofthe maker's name. When I went back to ask, I was told "Mario Poly"! I've been looking for him ever since.

The blade on mine was (according to a Finn) made by Mister Sompio, from the town of Sodankyla. Here's the mark on my blade:
http://perso.club-internet.fr/klrhodes/images/Puukko/dsc00001.jpg

The bevels are *not exactly* flat, as I found out when I needed to hone out a chip... But I wanted to get rid of the horrible grind marks, anyway.

All in all, a very good knive.

Since using it a lot, I decided to buy four Kankaanpää blades and two brass ferrules (alahela) from www.brisa.fi to make up knives.

Keith.

 

[Martyn]

Phew! :-D Thanks for all the good advice - I think I'll wait for the course before making a final decision, but I've been reading around and looking at the knives that have been recommended as well as others. This has left me with a few further basic questions:

1. Many of the recommended knives (Fallkniven F1, EKA Nordic W11) are in stainless steel of one sort or another, but the general advice on bushcraft knives seems to be to go for high carbon steel. Am I getting (more) confused or is there a real difference?

2. What about edge profile? Most seem to recommend the nordic-type single bevel (I ground out the secondary bevel on my USAF knife to make this sort of wedge-shape and it seems pretty good) but how do I spot it if the dealer's write-up is not specific. For example, from the catalogue photographs, the EKA Nordic W11 clearly has the nordic edge but it's not so obvious on the Fallkniven F1. What about the flat grind on the much-praised Cold Steel Master Hunter?

3. Are coatings like the black teflon available on the Fallkniven F1 worth having or do they get in the way of "proper" sharpening? Are blackened knives just too military for the bushcraft world? :-D

Over to you experts!

Ted W

I'll do my best to answer, though I'm a knife nut, not a bushcrafter (see sig).

1. It's a matter of personal choice. All knives are a compromise of some sort, usually between hardness and toughness. To explain, a super hard, high rockwell blade, will hold a fantastic edge for a long time, but because of the hardness, it will be difficult to sharpen in the field (or at all, for that matter). It also will have very little "flex", may be prone to chipping, or even snap if used heavily. A tough knife will flex, wont chip as easily, will sharpen readily, but will dull quickly. Stainless steels are not generally appreciated for their toughness (you cant make a stainless steel spring). Their composition makes them less than ideal, but they do harden well. So they are favoured by lovers of super sharp blades, that stay sharp for a long time. Carbon steel, is the age old favourite, it offers a good compromise between toughness and hardness, being flexible and resiliant, yet relatively hard at the edge (*all* real swords are made from carbon for this reason) - but they rust. However, modern stainless steel alloys, make the choice much less obvious. There have been many steels made, which offer some rust resiliance, but also good knife properties. One other reason that traditionalists tend to choose carbon, is because it sparks. But unless you are starting a fire with nothing but your knife and a lump of rock, this is meaningless, as stainless steels will throw sparks from synthetic flints too. It boils down to your preference. Personally, I like carbon, but I wouldn't let it put me off a well designed stainless blade. The ideal, would be a blde with the flex of a tough carbon steel spring, the rust resiliance of stainless, the ease of sharpening of carbon, but the edge retention of stainless. You can see, you cant have you cake and eat it. Most of these feature are antagonistic to one another. You need to pick the compromise which best suits your purpose.

2. Flat ground, convex ground, scandinavian grind, all will be good. They differ in how you sharpen them, but they will all work for general woodwork. The only one to avoid is hollow grind.

3. Unless you need to sneak up on an unsuspecting bush, black "stealth" coatings are a pure gimmick and will probably get you laughed at. Unfortunately, 95% of modern knives are designed to appeal to the para-military market. People like the way their "griffon, battle mistress or klingon death spear" looks and buy them for that reason. They are designed to be good at killing people, but are pretty poor at everything else (you can read the same for Bowies too). I dont think I've ever seen a pukko with a "stealth" coating.

/edit - the only time a black coating would be forgivable (IMO) is when it's used to rust protect a carbon blade. But that smacks of laziness, as good knife care and a little oil will do just as well. On this point, a super high gloss or mirror polish on a carbon blade, aids in rust resistance, but takes oil less well than a satin finish. My preferance for carbon blades is either a satin finish, or the parkerised effect resulting from an acid etch, both take oil well. If you like dark coloured blades, then a carbon blade that has had a good soak in an acid bath will look good and be very functional.

 

[Keith_Beef]

Phew! :-D Thanks for all the good advice - I think I'll wait for the course before making a final decision, but I've been reading around and looking at the knives that have been recommended as well as others. This has left me with a few further basic questions:

1. Many of the recommended knives (Fallkniven F1, EKA Nordic W11) are in stainless steel of one sort or another, but the general advice on bushcraft knives seems to be to go for high carbon steel. Am I getting (more) confused or is there a real difference?

2. What about edge profile? Most seem to recommend the nordic-type single bevel (I ground out the secondary bevel on my USAF knife to make this sort of wedge-shape and it seems pretty good) but how do I spot it if the dealer's write-up is not specific. For example, from the catalogue photographs, the EKA Nordic W11 clearly has the nordic edge but it's not so obvious on the Fallkniven F1. What about the flat grind on the much-praised Cold Steel Master Hunter?

3. Are coatings like the black teflon available on the Fallkniven F1 worth having or do they get in the way of "proper" sharpening? Are blackened knives just too military for the bushcraft world? :-D

Over to you experts!

Ted W

I'll do my best to answer, though I'm a knife nut, not a bushcrafter (see sig).

1. It's a matter of personal choice. All knives are a compromise of some sort, usually between hardness and toughness. To explain, a super hard, high rockwell blade, will hold a fantastic edge for a long time, but because of the hardness, it will be difficult to sharpen in the field (or at all, for that matter). It also will have very little "flex", may be prone to chipping, or even snap if used heavily. A tough knife will flex, wont chip as easily, will sharpen readily, but will dull quickly. Stainless steels are not generally appreciated for their toughness (you cant make a stainless steel spring). Their composition makes them less than ideal, but they do harden well. So they are favoured by lovers of super sharp blades, that stay sharp for a long time. Carbon steel, is the age old favourite, it offers a good compromise between toughness and hardness, being flexible and resiliant, yet relatively hard at the edge (*all* real swords are made from carbon for this reason) - but they rust. However, modern stainless steel alloys, make the choice much less obvious. There have been many steels made, which offer some rust resiliance, but also good knife properties. One other reason that traditionalists tend to choose carbon, is because it sparks. But unless you are starting a fire with nothing but your knife and a lump of rock, this is meaningless, as stainless steels will throw sparks from synthetic flints too. It boils down to your preference. Personally, I like carbon, but I wouldn't let it put me off a well designed stainless blade. The ideal, would be a blde with the flex of a tough carbon steel spring, the rust resiliance of stainless, the ease of sharpening of carbon, but the edge retention of stainless. You can see, you cant have you cake and eat it. Most of these feature are antagonistic to one another. You need to pick the compromise which best suits your purpose.

2. Flat ground, convex ground, scandinavian grind, all will be good. They differ in how you sharpen them, but they will all work for general woodwork. The only one to avoid is hollow grind.

3. Unless you need to sneak up on an unsuspecting bush, black "stealth" coatings are a pure gimmick and will probably get you laughed at. Unfortunately, 95% of modern knives are designed to appeal to the para-military market. People like the way their "griffon, battle mistress or klingon death spear" looks and buy them for that reason. They are designed to be good at killing people, but are pretty poor at everything else (you can read the same for Bowies too). I dont think I've ever seen a pukko with a "stealth" coating.

/edit - the only time a black coating would be forgivable (IMO) is when it's used to rust protect a carbon blade. But that smacks of laziness, as good knife care and a little oil will do just as well.

Martyn, send this person to www.BritishBlades.com. I'm sure he'll find that much of the informtation he wants about steel, hardness, toughness and bevel angles has already been discussed...

IIRR, to be called stainless, a steel needs to have 13% Chromium. That's it. No other criteria.

D2 has 12% (or sometimes 12.5%) Chromium, which makes it very stain-resistant... It is tough, gets hard, is inexpensive and is not difficult to work (low rejection rates during manufacture)... What more do you want from a knife steel?

Ever seen a Sissipuukko?

Keith.