Knife advice

[Martyn]

Martyn, send this person to www.BritishBlades.com. I'm sure he'll find that much of the informtation he wants about steel, hardness, toughness and bevel angles has already been discussed...

IIRR, to be called stainless, a steel needs to have 13% Chromium. That's it. No other criteria.

D2 has 12% (or sometimes 12.5%) Chromium, which makes it very stain-resistant... It is tough, gets hard, is inexpensive and is not difficult to work (low rejection rates during manufacture)... What more do you want from a knife steel?

Ever seen a Sissipuukko?

Keith.

Agreed, D2 is great (though the one blade I have made from D2 is a swine to sharpen), as is 440C, one to avoid though IMO, is 440a which is used quite often in lesser quality (priced?) knives (if it's labelled simply 440, it's probably 440a). I was just pointing out that the "better" modern alloys are fine, but that much of what most people know of as stainless, aint so good due to it's poor toughness, can be too brittle and hard to sharpen.

 

[Anonymous]

Phew lots of developments!

And a CS master hunter for the fun:

In answer to ed, and as my own comments to Martyn(hello fellow knife nut ! ;-) ):

1) Yes, I do agree, the borderline between carbon and stainless is narrow nowadays. The steel is not everything in a knife, it also needs a proper heat treatment. Stainless steels are generally more difficult to sharpen than carbon steels (because of bigger an more numerous chromium carbides), and also are slightly more brittle. Edge retention is not the main characteristic of a good knife either, D2 has been mentioned, D2 is nice, but it takes a poor edge (IMHO), and keeps it forever, because of big carbides. 12c27 by example is less brittle and takes a much finer edge. A question of choice. A carbon blade may also be brittle (the Roselli carpenter UHC I pictured is 1.2-1.5 carbon at 65HRC, almost as hard a a file!, makes D2 fell like butter when you sharpen it ), everything depends on the intend of the maker. But right, there are a few traps to avoid, the 440 as you described, 440 V,C,B are good (extra for the V) but A is butter. But again, it depends the technology in place. If you read the composition of 12C27 you say "cheap steel", Yes, but if it is heat treated the right way, with crio, and controlled processus corresponding to the blade thickness, it comes to the level of a good carbon steel. Another trouble of hard steels is that you can't steel them (or burnish) the edges. A softer blade that you burnish often enough to realign the edge will cut a lot for a long time ! As you said, Martyn, it is all a matter of concessions. Some makers try to get the best of all worlds by sintering softer and harder steels...

2) Edge profiles are also subject to personal preference. For carving and bush crafting, most people prefer either the nordic type, which has the advantage of cutting quite straight, and can be used like a chisel, or a full-convex edge, of a flat V.
The EKA W11 is NOT a nordic edge, it looks like, but has an edge bevel (which quickly disapeared on mine, thanks to my waterstones ;-) ) The F1 has a flat V grind, and the CS Master Hunter too. Some hollow grinds are good, you'd be amazed at how a hollow-ground Dozier in D2 works! But then, they are hollow ground with a large radius, they are not as good as carvers, unless you carve meat.

3) My experience with coatings is that I ruin them pretty quickly. And you do not want to eat teflon! It is purely cosmetic. Plus if you start sharpening the Jeff Randall's way, the coating won't last much !

Here is Jeff's field sharpening article , probably the most interesting sharpening article I ever read.

http://www.stalkingthewild.com/survival_sharps.htm

Keith, yes, banana trees grow in the garden like a plague. They are much fun to cut, makes you feel like superman

You can check if you see your Mauri poylio at:
http://www.couteaux-courty.com/cgi-...ion=view_category&database=courty&category=93
The picture shows something promising, do you have a total view?

The one I pictured is a Kuivalihapuukko
The bevels of puukkos are not always flat, They are generally maintaned slighly convex to keep some strength.

Keith, I recently got 3 Progression Tempered blades from the very same Brisa. 62HRC edge and 52 HRC back, cannot be bad he?
Which wood will you use for the kankaanpaa blades you got?

A Sissipuukko is a puukko for sissies no ? :-D please pardon my Frenc sense of humor... I have read the term somewhere, just cant't remember were.

Allez,
and a nice parang picture for the end ;-)

Ciao ciao & have fun,
/JM

 

[Matt]

Brisa sells the Sissipuukko

http://www.brisa.fi/sissi.html

 

[Martyn]

something worth noting, you cant differntially heat treat stainless steel of any kind. Take for example, the American Bladesmith Society test, they involve numerous cut tests, hacking through a lump of wood, cutting a free hanging 1" rope etc, then the blade *must* bend 90deg without snapping. I very much doubt you could achieve that with anything but differentially heat treated carbon. I'd be interested to know if any stainless blade ever passed the ABS test.

 

[Martyn]

JM, good to meet another knife nut.

Check out my website..

http://www.britishblades.com

Pop in for a chat.

 

[tedw]

Well, I asked for experts!!! :-D

Thanks all for the contributions; they will take a while to digest but the basic message seems to be "you pay your money and take your choice.” Like everything else in life (blast it!), there is no “best” and it's going to be a compromise. :-?

I have already looked at the http://www.britishblades.com site and found much of it very interesting, but to be frank I’m not a knife nut and I got a bit lost in all the technical talk about steel types, hardening processes etc. etc. – a bit like the stuff above!

Foolishly, I was looking for the easy, simple answer. Obviously, there isn’t one. :-(

Don’t worry, I’m not an embarrassing “Gandalf’s Klingon 7-bladed Death Sword” type. Having a military background and wanting to use a new knife to the full in the field, a non-reflective blade can be an advantage. Similarly, I’ve been wet for several days at a time on occasions and a treatment/coating than can reduce the loving care required to keep a blade rust-free has some attraction.

I’ll keep looking/reading – the quest continues!

Ted W

 

[JM]

Ah so this is a sissypuukko! thanks!

Hi Martyn, You can't differentially heat, but you can sandwitch, like for the Helle knives. I have a japanese blade that is a shirogami (1.2 carbon) core between two outer layers of soft stainless. These blades would pass.

The American blade society tests are certainly impressive, but they only set a soft standard to test is the blade has a differential teatment that was properly done, as it is actually designed to test a differential heat treatment: If the edge is too soft it will fail the rope & waking test, if the hard zone is too small, it will warp at the wacking test, if the temper is too high, it will crack the blade when bending it.

A common 15$ machete is a total spring temper at 45-50-HRC will outcut any of their knives in these tests, because it is best adapted to the rope cutting and 4x4 chopping, but it will fail the bending test, because it will not bend the same way, being a spring.

What does it mean ? Nothing !, a lot of people in the world use a cheap machete everyday and are happy with it, and to put things back in perspective, if it supports the same amount of abuse without breaking, who cares?

So, are bladesmiths tests are designed to test the bladesmiths skills and impress the public with an acceptance ritual? (IMHO, yes). The main trouble I have with this test of bending is that it does not match any life situation, but is artificial. Well the intention is good anyway :-D I have had big differencially hardened blades warp, and honestly it is no fun, because you can't put it back in their sheaths without hamering. In that case a spring temper is much better, and would not break either.

Honestly, chopping a piece of 4x4 is not a big feat either, some tools would just sail through it.

Some people actually consider it is good to have a blade that bends and comes back, and some prefer something that does not bends.

That is one shot in 4x4, which makes me laugh about the ABS tests. This bit is actually 4x6 I think. This is a carbon diff-tempered golok, and passes the ABS.

 

[JM]

Hey Martyn, thanks, I'll have a good look to your site

 

[Martyn]

tedw, sorry if I went a bit greek (or should that be "geek") on you.

A similar thread has been started on the CKD forums (American Custom Knife Directory). CKD is probably the worlds largest forum/collection of custom knife makers and an invaluable resource.

Have a look here to see what some are saying...
http://www.ckdforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=116259#post116259

It would seem that some favour carbon for hard work, woodwork, chopping tasks and such (as would I).

Here's a picture of Terry Primos putting one oif his blades through a 90 deg bend test...

I know Terry uses carbon, and I doubt many stainless blades would pass this test reliably.

Ed Caffrey (ABS mastersmith) describes how to make a blade that will pass the ABS Journeyman test...
http://www.customknifedirectory.com/CKD_TutorialFrameset.htm?CKD_Tutorials.htm~tmain

Again, using Carbon.

All this said, I doubt any knife you're likely to own, will be put to that much grief, unless you abuse it severely.

 

[Martyn]

Don’t worry, I’m not an embarrassing “Gandalf’s Klingon 7-bladed Death Sword” type. Having a military background and wanting to use a new knife to the full in the field, a non-reflective blade can be an advantage. Similarly, I’ve been wet for several days at a time on occasions and a treatment/coating than can reduce the loving care required to keep a blade rust-free has some attraction.

I’ll keep looking/reading – the quest continues!

Ted W

Glad to hear your not a fan of that particular model.

Carbon really isnt that bad for rust though. The impression people give is that if you show it moisture, it'll turn brown in front of your eyes, it's really not like that. Even if wet for days on end, it's unlikely to show much, provided it was in good condition and oiled beforehand, and you give it the occasional wipe. The only real concern is marine environments.

 

[Martyn]

That is one shot in 4x4, which makes me laugh about the ABS tests. This bit is actually 4x6 I think. This is a carbon diff-tempered golok, and passes the ABS.

Why isn't the golok make from stainless?

It doesnt surprise me that it performs well, the maker has probably been making and tempering blades for years. I agree, the ABS test is a showy, commercial thing, but it does attempt to standardise skills, which is laudible. It doesnt in any way mean that other makers from other countries make inferior products. You certainly dont have to be an ABS member to make a good blade. I doubt any Japenese swordsmiths are members.

BTW, is that by any chance a valliant golok? If so, that's my next intended purchase. How'd you find it?

 

[Keith_Beef]

In reply to Jean-Marc:

Thanks for posting the direct link to the MAURI PÖYLIÖ - SOMPIO page on Pierre Courty's site. Indeed, my knife came from his shop, and it was Courty père who told me the name "Mario Poly" javascript:emoticon(%27%3A-?')

The picture looks as if it's been squished horizontally a bit, to make it fit the size of the description panel. This makes the knife look stumpy, when in reality it is quite slender and graceful.

For my kankaanpää blades, I have some slices of reindeer antler (ordered from Brisa at the same time as the blades and ferrules). I have a block of masur birch, and there's some sallow (goat willow) on its way from Norway. I have some other woods sitting around (snakewood, prickly juniper, rosewood and my special secret wood), but I think the puukko blades should be mounted with more traditional Northern woods. At least, until I get round to making my "Southern Puukko" (looking for a better name), which will probably use a combination of stag, mock acacia and walnut. Maybe with a D2 blade javascript:emoticon(%27%3A-P%27)


Keith.






(I'm playing with smilies for the first time, so no knowing how this will work)

 

[Anonymous]

Martyn, agreed 100%

Yes, this is a Valiant SG, yes they are clay differentially tempered spring steel. and Yes, it is the best value for a big knife I can think on the market.
I kinda launched some of the interest for Valiant, by publishing the first review on it on Bladeforums and Knifeforums and Vickingswords ethnical, but lots have been written on since, A blade has even been shamelessly destroyed by controversed tester Cliff Stamps (and he is a bit more extreme than simple ABS tests)...

Everything about it (except the Stamps part) can be read at:

http://outdoors.free.fr/s_search.php?recherche=Valiant+Golok




Keith, I wish you good fun with the kankaanpaa blades !

 

[Paganwolf]

Cut through the knife hype ive been collecting and using knives for years ive seen the RM knives, used frost cutlery knives you can have drawers fullof the critters, its just a matter of good steel and the feel which suits you. I have a Bison Bushcraft which i belieive is the best knife ive come across for bushcraft, its just as the name states a good solid bushcraft knife, keeps an edge well and is made by an excellent knife maker, id pit it anytime against a WL knife. as i say ive used many a knife and your only as good as your favorite lol ): a BB is hard to beat trust me.