Is this good bushcraft?

[brancho]

The event described sounds awful and I would doubt a good Scout County/district would organise such a thing but you never know.

iv'e been wanting to do something like that with my scout/explorer group ever since I joined.

There is no reason you cant do the survival badge with Scouts its there to do and should be fun (not hell) with good planning and preperation look HERE

 

[phaserrifle]

There is no reason you cant do the survival badge with Scouts its there to do and should be fun (not hell) with good planning and preperation look HERE

unfortunately it was a case of getting the chance. we where all aware of the survival badge there was even a poster about it up in the scout hut. makes no odds now though, explorers can't get scout badges. still want to do a camp though (theres supposed to be one in a couple of months time, but iv'e heared that one before....)

 

[Mike Ameling]

To me, it looks like way too typical Top Down management by people who don't know what they are "dictating" others to do, and don't really care - except to protect their jobs by PROVING that they are actually doing something.

The kids that are really interested will push through and learn. The rest will suffer and (hopefully) endure. But that "bad experience" will stay with them for years! (some good in that, but mostly bad)

As so many others have already stated, it's a "tragedy" and "lawsuit" waiting to happen!

The hard part right now will be getting past that "it's better than nothing" attitude - to improve it both in safety and as a learning experience, or to end it before fate does catch up to it. And both of those options involve risk and work.

Sorry to hear of your unfortunate situation.

Just my humble thoughts to share. Take them as such.

Mikey - that grumpy ol' German blacksmith out in the Hinterlands

 

[Sniper]

Personally I believe the law is already being broken if what you describe is true.....if the organisation has organised a night out then they have a duty of care by law to ensure adequate supervision by qualified responsible persons who are there for the whole time, I also believe by law that there needs to be 1 adult supervisor to every 8 kids, even more if there are more of the younger age groups attending. The Health and Safety Executive along with social services would have a field day with any adult involved in this abuse, and believe me that is the correct term for this so called event, and I am also convinced there would me a few court hearings if they were told about this. I could not agree more that this type of event must be changed before someone gets hurt, more than likely one of the youngsters........ It has amazing potential to be a thrilling and educational experience for these kids, and bearing in mind no risk no fun, so by good supervision and training, thereby educating these youngsters in skills such as shelter making, fire making and fire safety, cooking a proper meal using a campfire, and a miriad of other useful and enjoyable activities, this could be, the trip of a lifetime (ok I'm exaggerating a bit now) but it could be something very enjoyable and memorable too ......instead of something to be endured. Plus they don't even get a badge for it, these adult organisers are not fit to be within 100 miles of our kids let alone plan and run this kind of S & M assault on them.
They should be cremating sausages and dripping melting marshmallows or a BBQ and drinking hot chocolate after a hearty meal of stew whilst sitting around a good fire and sitting on logs and having fun......they are kids for god's sake.....instead of being wet and miserable with nothing to show for their endeavors!

 

[crazydave]

orange survival bags are designed to keep a person alive for the night. however they are not designed to be breathable, and so sweat and condensation on the inside of the bag makes you damp. also the bag is supposed to be drawn tight (ish) around the neck, to prevent heat escaping.

bit out of date there by 20 years or so - most scout groups stick their kids in bags or the kids do it themselves not realising that they just get sweaty. the correct way to survive in these is to cut a corner off and crawl in headfirst so you benefit from the heat via your head and wont suffocate, it also reduces condensation. it was made that shape so it could be cut open and used as a tarp or signal panel. however its used though its always a miserable experience as it is designed to keep you alive and no more.

I'm guessing this event is classed as one of those big sleepout things they tried for the millenium thats been kept going. its good idea to get the kids outside for the experience of being under the stars. in bivvy bags is fine as tarps dont work in a field and normal summer weather they could get away with no bivvy bag at all. the kids have a tendency not to undress so produce a lot more moisture on top of the damp clothes they are probably wearing from running aroung dewy grass. they have a reasonable idea regards the blankets but you should have 4 not 2. 3 below and one on top.

it sounds like a district idea which has got no support or organisation which is common for most scout events nowadays

if you want to take kids out and get them used to more airy surroundings then stick them under dining shelters but only half pole them so they are only three foot off the deck. it can be done anywhere, they dont need bivvy bags and its good fun.

its got bugger all to do with bushcraft though and it probably never entered the minds of the organisors to fashion it as such - its purely a calender filler so say they organised something

as to supervision as far as I'm aware the 8 to 1 is purely advisory and certainly not a law otherwise they would get into trouble for current class sizes. as long as there is provision to dry them off and take them to hospital if needed then its fulfilled. duty of care should go to the group leaders though who should share the experience with the kids and not sit in a beery tent all night like the normal scenario

 

[brancho]

I also believe by law that there needs to be 1 adult supervisor to every 8 kids, even more if there are more of the younger age groups attending.

For kids over 10 you are mistaking guidance and good practice for law. The advice of the Scout association for the 10 plus is 1 to 12.

 

[brancho]

it sounds like a district idea which has got no support or organisation which is common for most scout events nowadays

I would say this is not common at all.

 

[Sniper]

Is'nt that for indoor activities Brancho I'm sure it's 1 to 8 for outdoor and a closer ratio for night time supervised activities that is what we have had to provide with the ACF and SCC I suppose it might be different here north of the border but I don't think so. Also the younger the age group the more supervision needed. I love to see kids enjoying themselves and having a good time and if we can teach them something useful at the same time all the better. If that entails a bit of a risk it adds to the fun for them but as I'm sure you know it can be made to appear risky to them without actually being much of a risk. Those supervising ...correction.... as stated most of those supervising have little to no skills, training, or experience in these activities, and it is precisely this sort of lackadasical attitude which brought about the tightening of the law following several fatal accidents in the past.....remember the canoe outing where a kid drowned then the inquiry discovered the expedition leaders were not qualified? Putting all the legal stuff aside though I don't believe it is necessary for these kids to endure what they are when it could be Fun, Practical, and learning to enjoy the countryside as we all here do, and most importantly safely and within reason comfortably, also they are more likely to come back for more of the same, I can't imagine many of these kids coming back for more of this treatment, I certainly would'nt. Sorry for the ranting but I do feel strongly about such things and don't mean to offend, it just makes me want to spit when I hear of this type of practice.

 

[phaserrifle]

bit out of date there by 20 years or so - most scout groups stick their kids in bags or the kids do it themselves not realising that they just get sweaty. the correct way to survive in these is to cut a corner off and crawl in headfirst so you benefit from the heat via your head and wont suffocate, it also reduces condensation. it was made that shape so it could be cut open and used as a tarp or signal panel. however its used though its always a miserable experience as it is designed to keep you alive and no more.

so that's how you use one, I can see that way would be warmer.

 

[brancho]

Is'nt that for indoor activities Brancho I'm sure it's 1 to 8 for outdoor and a closer ratio for night time supervised activities that is what we have had to provide with the ACF and SCC I suppose it might be different here north of the border but I don't think so. Also the younger the age group the more supervision needed.

The numbers I stated were taken straight from The SA website in our book of rules and guidance for outdoors younger age groups have rules not guidance.
The Scout association offers full traing and advice to all Leaders.

There alaways those that think they know what they are doing when they do not. I would like to know a bit more anout the event listed below and hear another account to see if the opinion given is a balanced view.

Stating with the event was obligitory for instance. Is it a requirement of getting an award that makes obligitory ie if you do not take part you do not qualify to get X.
Participation in such activities should always offer an out for the Young Person (horrid PC speak for kid) if they feel they are not up to it.

 

[spamel]

they have a reasonable idea regards the blankets but you should have 4 not 2. 3 below and one on top.

Four blankets? Surely you jest! I used two at the Moot and was kicking them off I was that hot! If you use blankets correctly, you end up with two layers below and two layers above, with four above and below your feet, just using two good blankets. If you had to carry four blankets, you'd need two bergens!

 

[webbie]

Four blankets? Surely you jest! I used two at the Moot and was kicking them off I was that hot! If you use blankets correctly, you end up with two layers below and two layers above, with four above and below your feet, just using two good blankets. If you had to carry four blankets, you'd need two bergens!

and in what manner did thee fold thy blankets round thys body?

 

[ilan]

If its not a wind up then to me the event is just pointless . to do it better ? well sleeping bags cold miserable kids are no fun ? some old tarps garden canes , ropes and any non cut materials they can find for best 4 in a camp ! you would need some form of central event /camp fire /best skit/ etc plus cooking area and back up food as hungary kids are a pain as well . for survival skills they are better of in small groups

 

[crazydave]

Four blankets? Surely you jest! I used two at the Moot and was kicking them off I was that hot! If you use blankets correctly, you end up with two layers below and two layers above, with four above and below your feet, just using two good blankets. If you had to carry four blankets, you'd need two bergens!

its old scout packing lists - my first three proper camps as a cub it was three blankets as there were no kip mats and because we all had caravan type doss bags then another blanket on top. mind you early summer in langdale forest is a bit colder than wet windy wales in august

 

[xylaria]

Spamel has done a great tutorial on the correct use of blankets. I used two blankets the last few times i have slept out. Brillant flexible kit, much easier to use than a sleeping bag. I have a 1950's cub scout wool sleeping bag as well. I used a wool blanket instead of kip mats before i slept in hammock to protect bad joints. 3 blankets might be required in winter sleeping like this but generally i think it would excessive

 

[Ben Trout]

Sounds like an event that needs a shake up. I'm an ASL in Wiltshire, so if you need some helpers let me know.

 

[spamel]

and in what manner did thee fold thy blankets round thys body?

I did a thread a while back that illustrates the correct way to fold blankets to keep you warm. Can't remember the name of the thread, pretty sure it had "Blanket" in the title though! Have a quick search and see what it throws up, you'll probably get a thread about the best place to buy them as well.

 

[Bernie Garland]

Heres the link to Spams excellent tutorial

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29724&highlight=blanket

Bernie

 

[webbie]

thanks bernie saves me searching and thanks spamel for the tutorial

webbie