Is this good bushcraft?

[quietfool]

Hi,
I have a query which I hope all the more experienced hands on here will have an opinion on...!
I'm involved with an organisation that runs activities for kids, and every few years they hold a large scale camp which, the last three times, has included a 24 hour survival experience. This event is obligatory, and involves about 250 kids aged 10 - 16 ish spending a night in a bivouac. They are told to bring an orange survival bag, two blankets, the clothes they are standing up in and a pot noodle/similar for supper. They make shelters from tarps. In bad weather there is a marquee provided to move them into, but no dry blankets/clothing etc. Although a daytime activity is organised by a team of helpers, there are no central helpers onsite all the time and nobody is involved who has any training/experience in bushcraft. Now, being a great lover of bushcraft myself I've always enjoyed these shared campouts but notice that most of the leaders dread the experience, and many of the children are cold and damp all night long. It doesn't seem to inspire a love of bushcraft in many of the participants as it comes to be equated to a miserable cold night. As I understand it, those orange bags are really survival equipment, not the kind of thing you would willingly use in a non-survival situation. Many people want to scrap the event; I think it could be adapted to become a real bushcraft challenge enjoyed by far more of its participants; but how? What do you think?

 

[scanker]

Something fairly similar came up a while ago: http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30736

The blankets are a good idea, but one tarp between two might keep them drier and lead to a more comfortable experience. Or you could try some shelter building.

 

[caliban]

Doesn't sound like fun, but I think it's the kind of thing that will give kids a healthy respect for outdoors and maybe an inkling of what can happen when things go wrong, and thus encourage them to do things properly in the first place. Would it be a better idea to let them spend one night roughing it and a second night showing them what to take and what skills you need to spend a night in comfort?

 

[spamel]

Let them have a fire for pitys sake! If it is supposed to be survival training, a fire would be a very important thing for boiling water to make it safe to drink or sterilising cloth for bandages, making food edible or more palatable, signalling to aircraft and searchers and also keeping warm. Showing them how to sleep by a fire with a couple of blankets would probably be a better thing to do. They'll not get cold or be miserable, the fire creates a natural meeting point anyway and the onus is on them to keep that fire going all night, by a shift rotation of one person staying awake and tending it.

Of course, H&S will probably foil all of your efforts anyway but sleeping inside one of those orange bags will leave you damp even if you get in dry. Much better if it isn't a stormy night to put them up as tarps by placing a small smooth round pebble in the corner, gathering the bag around it and tying off with some cordage to give you a guy line. Creating a mattress with logs, springy branches and bracken on top will also help passing the night in comfort.

 

[ANDYRAF]

How long is the camp, if it's just one day that does make it difficult to teach anything.

 

[Tadpole]

Personally, and having done something similar when I was 16, only we had to spend three nights out, in Dyfi Forest. I think spending the first night/day should be spent teaching the kids to do it right, and then working in pairs help them to build shelters for two people, that is a much better way to go. You can still use the orange survival bags, just split them open to make a roof, and use the second one as a ground sheet. Tree browse or leaf matter will make a good enough bed for a reasonable night sleep. A £10 Aldi fleece blanket (cheap and cheerful) or woollen blanket, shared between two people will keep them warm enough. You don’t really need a sleeping bag, a couple of blankets works just as well.

The object is to show them they have the ability to do such things, sleep out, and have limited food, restricted company, loneliness, and silence. And not to make them suffer just because you were treated in the same way as a scout/kid. Being alone or with a person you don’t really know in the dark is more a mental challenge for kids than it is for an adult. That is the whole point of the “night outside alone” challenge, not the physical aspect, its away of showing kids that they are able to be alone in a new and tough situation and “survive”.

 

[Toddy]

I agree with Spam and Tadpole, and to be honest I reckon that set up is just a lazy way for the organisers to pretend that this is really how to sleep outdoors without going to the effort to make it comfortable.
It's covering their tails with no fire H & S, and no hassle or bother teaching the kids 'anything' except that big orange bags are damp and that sleeping outdoors is miserable.
What a waste.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[ANDYRAF]

Nicely put Tadpole.

 

[Ogri the trog]

I think 250 kids in the woods for one night is a tall order, no matter what the event.
Though it does sound like a "Who's the toughest" competition rather than an introduction to Bushcraft/Survival. I'd happily echo Spams comments and say a fire/fires are a must, even if the children sleep in the marquee. A potfull of stew or hot drinks would work wonders rather than those dreadful noodle snacks.
I'm guessing here, but I think there would be folk on here willing to do "something" to guide the group to a modicum of comfort (and lure the next generation into appreciating the outdoors) and learn a craft, rather than abondon the poor unfortunates to the elements and turn them against the outdoors for ever.

I hope this event takes a huge turn for the better, very soon.

ATB

Ogri the trog

 

[verloc]

Hi,
I have a query which I hope all the more experienced hands on here will have an opinion on...!
I'm involved with an organisation that runs activities for kids, .....

Can I ask what this organisation is?

 

[quietfool]

It's a scout/guide group, who in general I must say do an excellent job, the problem as I see it is that this aspect was centrally organised but not by bushcrafty people, so that the individual leaders who work with the guide units aren't involved in preparing for the event. I do a lot of bushcraft/survival stuff with the units I lead on a weekly basis, and have to say they all love it to bits and complained loudly that, both because of the location and safety decisions, they weren't allowed fires, particularly as I'd spent a few weeks on friction firelighting and explaining how important a fire can be to being comfortable outdoors! Like you say, 24 hrs, particularly with the kind of organisation in place, doesn't provide half the learning opportunities it could do, so the kids find themselves pitching weak shelters anywhere, the site itself is coastal and very exposed plus lots of ants nests so choosing a site well is really important, but few of the leaders, let alone the kids, know where to begin. There's a lot of anti-feeling about the event within the movement, and many want to scrap it which in my opinion would be a crying shame, but that doesn't mean it can go on as it has done.

 

[spamel]

What's wrong with fires on the coast? As long as it is in the tidal range I believe it is permissible. Of course, you'd need to keep an eye on the tide!

 

[Womble]

This isn't a Hampshire Country event is it?

 

[Celt_Ginger]

I believe that the "No fires" rule, especially with 250 kids is spot on. I wouldn't allow that many kids fires either. there will be at least one that will abuse it and try and set the whole forest on fire and quite a lot who will just have no idea that their actions with their fires are dangerous.You may have trained your own kids well, but I guarentee that many other kids will not know what end of a match to hold and what end gets hot. The time for a fire is with a much smaller group. Shelters from Tarps is a good idea, but they must have been shown how to put them up in advance of going out for the night. The survival bag and blankets thing is also a good idea, but again, they need to have been shown the best way to line the survival bag in advance. A pot noodle for tea is just stupid. It is of practically no nutritional value, won't fill them up (which will help keep them warm during the night) and will give them a short burst of sugary carb energy, then a big downer when it runs out. Then need a good stew or something like that as an evening meal. Even sandwiches would be better than a Pot Noodle. 250 unsupervised kids in a forest is a disaster waiting to happen. The adults should be right there amoung them, sleeping in an orange survival bag, just like they are, eating the same food which has been prepared the same way, under tarps and keeping a cheery persona while telling them how mush worse it was the last time you did it. Even in the summer time, a wet child can go down with Hyothermia. To me, this is just a law suit waiting to happen. Has anyone done a proper risk accessment on this? I agree that it would be a shame to ban the event, but it would seem that it could be a lot better organised. for a start I would divide up the large group into smaller sections and have a team of adults allocated to each smaller group, responsible for all aspects of their group. Having a group of cold, wet and hungey kids hit rock bottom on an exercise when you are in charge is a scarey experience and yes, it has happened to me. Thankfully, I had the wit and experience (as well as good back up) to be able to do something about it.

 

[rancid badger]

If thats the best the people in charge can come up with, perhaps it's time they looked at passing on the baton to people with significantly more imagination.
This wouldn't exactly be a quantum leap by the sound of it.
Laziness, apathy, ignorance? seems like it's all there to me.

R.B.

P.S. Welcome to the site but an intro would be nice too!

 

[spamel]

I wasn't aware the kids were being left to their own devices! That makes little to no sense tio me at all. Banding kids into a ten person group, adding one adult and then sending them off with some basic root vegetables and some meat product or other with a pot to cook in and the ability to start a fdire seems like perfect sense to me. How do they heat the water for a pot noodle without a fire by the way?

 

[rancid badger]

This isn't a wind up by any chance?
R.B.

 

[Celt_Ginger]

You know RB, I was just thinking the same thing.

 

[phaserrifle]

Hi,
I As I understand it, those orange bags are really survival equipment, not the kind of thing you would willingly use in a non-survival situation.

orange survival bags are designed to keep a person alive for the night. however they are not designed to be breathable, and so sweat and condensation on the inside of the bag makes you damp. also the bag is supposed to be drawn tight (ish) around the neck, to prevent heat escaping. the kids you refer to are probably not doing this as they are too hot to sleep, and so they end up cold and damp. thier best bet is to use it as a ground sheet, and use the blankets to keep them warm.

either way the kids are lucky to be involved, iv'e been wanting to do something like that with my scout/explorer group ever since I joined.

 

[mortalmerlin]

It sounds pointless to me. What are you going to teach them other than how to contract hypothermia? Maybe break it down into smaller groups, one going out each night during the course of your event with adults that enjoy it and let them pair up as was suggested with improvised shelter and a supervised fire. I think you're right that the event you have now will put more kids off than encourage.