Is it worth getting a pair of expensive Binos?

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Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
Ive got a pair of 10x42 barr and stroud saharas. Which I think are very good.

But is it worth getting some old zeiss jena 7x42's or minox hg 8x43........top of the range jobbies?

I mean how much better can they be?

Ten times better? Do they really make a huge amount of difference at the edges of your view and at dawn and dusk?
 

Wayne

Mod
Mod
Dec 7, 2003
3,753
645
51
West Sussex
www.forestknights.co.uk
When I have been tracking and wildlife watching in low light my Bushnell legends are OK. I borrowed my mate Leica and the difference in performance was amazing. Items barely seen with my 8x42s were back to almost daylight.

If you have the funds then I think a top end pair of bins is a good investment.
 

Wildpacker

Member
Feb 25, 2005
44
0
UK
Always good to have binos but it's always a trade-off against their weight. I would love to have a Zeiss 15x56 with me all the time but at over a grand a pair it would be madness. In any case I don't need that sort of quality on a regular basis. So I go to the other end of the scale and always carry an Optus 8x21 binocular which fits in a pocket and satisfies 99% of my need. Obviously not much use in low light levels though.
Horses for courses, if I were into nocturnal nature watching or voyeurism I would probably buy a decent pair of second hand 10x50.
 

Robson Valley

Full Member
Nov 24, 2014
9,959
2,665
McBride, BC
1. At least as important, as it is for dawn and dusk hunting here, is the diameter of the exit pupil of light.
Too big, larger than your pupil diameter, and not all of the collected light enters your pupils to fall on the retina.
You can't see as brightly.
I bought Pentax 7x50 partly for the price but mostly for the exit pupil light cone diameter that matched my eyes.
2. Higher power is useless if you can't hold them steady and few can manage 15X with out a functional improvement like image stabilization.
Now, that is amazing.
3. Resolution, the ability to distinguish 2 objects as being separate and distinct goes with the price you pay for the precision of the lens element shapes.
My Pentax are fair but the Zeiss by comparison is breath-taking.
= = = =
 

Buckshot

Mod
Mod
Jan 19, 2004
6,466
349
Oxford
Depends what (and when) you're doing
Bright daylight you wont really see a difference. It's half light where the expensive bins really excell
I have a Swarzoski (sp) scope on my deer rifle and it is often better than using the mark 1 eyeball at 3/4 dark
To answer your question. Is it really worth it? Yes, possibly
 

mick91

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
May 13, 2015
2,064
7
Sunderland
It depends what you're using them for really. If you're using them to watch nature at a distance then yes. If you're like me and use them to identify where pigeons are in fields then not really. If you like your current bins stick with them. I have a pair of mini hawk 8x24s for in the pocket and a pair of ??x42ish ones in the car because they magnify more and are a little clearer (the spec wore off them many moons ago well before they came into my posession) and that works great for me. It all depends on your eyesight too. Odds are that mid range bins or a mono will serve you just fine
 

JonathanD

Ophiological Genius
Sep 3, 2004
12,809
1,479
Stourton,UK
I used cheapish binos for years. Begrudgingly I bought some decent ones and it was a world of difference, especially in low light. I don't use my night vision equipment anywhere near as much now.
 

fenrir

Member
Dec 12, 2014
32
0
Austria
1) The older you get, the smaller your iris is (or rather - the less your iris can open in the dark). I'd recommend not to go beyond output diameter of 6mm (you can calculate it by dividing the diameter of the objective by the magnification. Thus, a 7x42 (7x magnification, 42mm objective) would result in a 6mm diameter beam towards the eye. Younger (around 20-30) might still be able to use something with a larger beam diameter, but for all others, 6mm is fine.

2) The larger the diameter, the more light you get in/through. But it also becomes more heavy. My brother and I both prefer the 7x42 or 8.5x50 vs the 8x56 of our father. It's smaller, packs lighter, and only marginally looses in brightness at dusk/dawn compared to the 'I'll always take it along' aspect ...

3) Personally I find any magnification beyond 8 too high to hold sufficiently steady. With something like 10x56, while you will have a nice close view, any small shaking will affect the steadyness you notice in the picture.

4) 8x50 (or 8.5x50, or is the (personally) recommended spec for binos from my side.


I am very happy with my DDOptics 8.5x50 EDX. About 1k euro. My brother got a new Zeiss 7x42 (the original owner won it at a competition and never unpacked it) for ... about 500 euro at egun.de But Swaro has really good customer support. You can easily by a used Swaro, send it in to have it serviced (something like 50 euro) and you have a shiny, new product ...
 

Dave

Hill Dweller
Sep 17, 2003
6,019
9
Brigantia
I guess, Im going to have to see this amazing difference at low light, referred to here, myself, to believe it.

Ive just bought a Schmit and Bender scope. 6x42, with an exit pupil of 7mm, which is supposedly the same as their 8x56.

Would this scope be a good reference as to what to expect in low light conditions, from a high end bino?

Or would it pail in comparison to zeiss binos?

[Thanks for all the replies.]
 

Mike_B

Tenderfoot
Dec 21, 2009
68
1
Perth, Scotland
I suggest you try a top end pair of Swarovski - then you will really see just what a difference there is up at that end of the market. You will also always regret having done so if you're not in a position to actually pay the sort of money involved to acquire them.
 
Oct 30, 2012
566
0
Eseex
This is something I have been musing for a while, I am particularly glad that Dave asked because I have the same B & S binos as him...

A few people have mentioned "decent" and top end binos on here, any recommendations for upgraded binos?
 

Bigfoot

Settler
Jul 10, 2010
669
4
Scotland
I have the B&S Saharas (which I think are great performers for the money) and also have a pair of HDX's. I found the sharpness of the image to be much the same on both, the main difference is the much better low light performance on the HDX's, which reflects some of the comments above.
 
N

Nomad

Guest
Once you get beyond a certain price or quality level, the differences become very small or harder to see and assess.

My two bins are B&S Sierra (80 quid) and Vanguard Endeavour EDII (400 quid), both 8x42.

The centre of the field in both is very sharp - almost impossible to separate them. In low light (shadowy areas under street lights at night), I can see no difference in light gathering, and they are both noticeably better than I can manage with the naked eye.

The Sierras can suffer from chromatic aberration at times. In the centre of the field, it can happen with high contrast subjects (like a silhouetted bird against a bright sky), and can be seen more often in the outer field. The Endeavours can get a little CA on occasion, but it's much better controlled and the width of the fringing is much narrower.

The Sierras have some field curvature - focus on something in the centre of the field and then move to put it near the edge, and the focus goes out, meaning you need to adjust focus to get it sharp again. The Endeavours have a very flat field and there is no real perception that the centre to edge focus changes as you move the subject around in the view. The Sierras also have poorer ultimate sharpness at the edges - can't get it as sharp as in the centre. If the Endeavours have this as well (and they might), then it's far less obvious.

The Sierras have noticeable (but not excessive) pincushion distortion that becomes apparent about 50% from centre to edge. Inside that area, straight things still look straight. Outside it, going nearer to the edge, it doesn't especially get worse. In other words, there's a fairly marked transition between straight and pincushion. Can't see much, if any, pincushion with the Endeavours - maybe a little at the extreme edges. When viewing natural subjects, the pincushion distortion isn't really apparent.

Out of these shortcomings, the only one that really gets in the way is the chromatic aberration, possibly because it can be evident in the centre of the field. It's nice having the better optical quality further out to the edges in the Endeavours, but I can't say that the lesser quality in the outer field of the Sierras has ever been much of a problem - you tend to point the bins at the thing you want to look at rather than point them askew and view the subject in the outer field.


At a recent RSPB scope & binocular weekend, I had a look through various bins. My impression was that, once past the cheapie ones, the differences were surprisingly small. I would have needed to spend more time with the ones costing £200 to £600 to get a clear idea of what the extra cost provided. I also looked through some Swarovski EL (8.5x42, I think), and Leica Ultravid 8x42. The Swaros were very similar to the Endeavours - flat field design with the rolling ball effect. I felt the Leicas were the best - just - such that if I was tripping over a pile of money and had nothing else to spend it on, I'd burn the £1.6K on them before I'd burn £1.8K on the Swaros. As it is, I burned £400 on the Endeavours (and got a £50 discount, as it happens), and that was mostly because I had an unexpected cash windfall that covered the cost of them. I was mainly buying better control of CA. I honestly can't see the point in spending 4x the price to get such a marginal improvement over what I have. The most striking thing I took from that session was how small the differences were - and how the minor improvements were eye-wateringly expensive.

Bins can be a bit like hi-fi systems at times. Hi-fi buffs have a reputation for spending lots of time listening to the system rather than the music, and it's possible to do the same with binoculars. It's easy to get caught up in assessing the equipment and start chasing abstract improvements in quality for the sake of it. When it gets down to it, nearly all modern bins, from the decent quality budget ones and up, are very good indeed and can serve very well for things like watching wildlife and bringing distant views closer. My enjoyment of bird watching hasn't been magically transformed because I'm now using bins that cost 5 times the price of the Sierras. The Endeavours have quicker focussing, which is handy, and I like the much-improved control of CA, but both still give sharp images of birds in the centre of the field. However, if I hadn't scored 400-odd quid unexpectedly, I'd probably still be using the Sierras - the Endeavours are nice to have, but I can't say they were an essential upgrade.

My advice: If you haven't already, learn a bit about the technical aspects of binoculars and how they affect the optical experience. Learn what to look for and how to see it. Then go somewhere where you can try a wide range of bins in different price bands, taking your own bins along for comparison. You might be surprised at how much bin you can get for not a lot of money, and at how little more you get for a large pile of money. After a bit of time, you should be able to work out your cost/quality sweet spot and choose something that you enjoy using.
 
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Excellent post Nomad! I especially liked this bit:
My advice: If you haven't already, learn a bit about the technical aspects of binoculars and how they affect the optical experience. Learn what to look for and how to see it. Then go somewhere where you can try a wide range of bins in different price bands, taking your own bins along for comparison. You might be surprised at how much bin you can get for not a lot of money,
I saw a lot of good stuff in all of the other posts too.

The trouble with binoculars is that they come in so many sizes because they are specialized instruments, and also coatings and lens technology have come a long way. Matching a type to what you need is vital to get money’s worth - and that's not simple.
For what it's worth, my experience to add:

I used an expensive set of porro prism 10x50's for decades, and given the constant use in all conditions, I got my money's worth. I found the extra magnification of the 10x useful because I spotted stuff moving by regular eyesight, then used the bins for a close look. The advantage of the expensive part is that they had/have good light transmission. The huge problem is whether a person can put bins of that magnification range to the eyes actually pointing to what is wanted to be examined, instead of madly scanning the bush, and if a person can hold them steady. They were/are also bulky and heavy. I gave those to my son when I picked up a set of Bushnell Fusion 12x50's with laser range finder. All of the advantages AND disadvantages of the 10x50's only much more so. The binoculars are great but whether a person can make them work for their use is the real question. I sure wouldn't have bought the 12x50s if I hadn't been confident that I could use them. At the same time I got a set of Bushnell "Bone Collector" 8x42's for my grandson. Gosh the names they come up with.

So with 3 pairs of binoculars around I could sit on the porch and compare them for hours in all conditions. I guess we've all heard that when you look through cheap binoculars for hours that you'll get a headache. While the BC's were not exactly dirt cheap, they were compared to the others but did fine. I was really impressed with the light transmission of the 12x50's with only a bit over 4mm exit pupil. Things have come a long way with optics!

Binoculars are such amazing tools that later this year I'll be comparing cheaper ones to select a pair that can stay in the truck without me worrying about theft, because the cheap ones you have with you will always beat the expensive ones at home..
 
N

Nomad

Guest
A few more thoughts...

I'd agree that it's important to work out what you want to use the bins for and establish what specification is likely to suit. for example, 8x42 is favoured for bird watching (my main use) because they have a good balance between magnification and steadiness, and the light gathering power is pretty good (birds often settle down to roost as dusk is coming in, so conditions can be a bit dull). During the day, 8x42s give a nice bright image, and are excellent for looking into dark areas (such as amongst trees). Compared to the naked eye, they really are light amplifiers.

There is also the basic type of bin to consider - roof prism or porro prism. Roof prism is the more modern type with straight tubes, and porros are the traditional configuration with the dog-leg shape on each barrel. Porros are easier to design well optically, but are bulkier and can be heavier than a similar spec roof. They're also less likely to be waterproof (harder mechanics to protect or seal, I guess). I'd be tempted to think that older porros, of any quality, are unlikely to be waterproof. Nearly all modern roof prism bins are o-ring sealed and purged with nitrogen (= dry gas), meaning that they will never steam up inside due to temperature changes and won't get wet inside if they get rained on or dropped in the proverbial stream.

To get a similar optical quality from roof prism bins means designing in more corrections, and using suitable types of glass where needed. Apparently, something called BaK4 is needed for the prisms in roofs, and the coatings on these can have an effect as well - so-called phase coating helps with accurate colour balance. Similarly, the anti-reflective coatings on the various optical elements can help to increase light transmission through the glass. Lens coatings come in a few forms: coated, multi-coated, and fully multi-coated. Coated means a single layer of coating on the outside surfaces of the external bits of glass, multi-coated means several different coatings on the outside, and fully-multi-coated means all glass to air/nitrogen surfaces are multi-coated. For a given standard of coating, fully multi-coated will give the best light transmission. BaK4 prisms with phase coating will help make things that bit better as well. When I was shopping for decent budget bins a couple of years ago, the Sierras were my choice because they got good reviews, and were nitrogen purged, fully multi-coated and had phase coated BaK4 prisms. In terms of reputation and the main technical spec, they looked good, and I'd say they matched or exceeded my expectations. In a sense, given the difference in price amongst the budget bins, I felt that what they offered was the minimum spec to go for (they were £74 when I got them, and can still be had for £80 or so). Hardly worth saving £10-20 on a cheaper pair, especially if ordering online and not able to try them - my approach was to get something with good comments, and that ticks as many of the technical boxes as possible.

A couple of things stood out when reading binocular reviews when I was shopping. Nearly everybody says their bins are great, but don't go into any substantial detail about why they're great (often, they've upgraded from something cheap and nasty, or simply don't know any better and are talking about their first bins). When reading the more serious reviews, such as by people that take an interest in bins and review lots of them, one comment tends to predominate over all others - the budget bins coming out of China just get better and better, and it is continually surprising how good they can be for prices that would have been unheard of 10 years ago (or even 2 or 3 years ago). Having used the Sierras and Endeavour EDIIs (both Chinese made), and spent some time with the aforementioned Leicas and Swaros, I would tend to agree - the balance between quality and price is very good indeed. So much so, that I'd seriously wonder if an older pair of Zeiss, say, really represent good value, not to mention any appreciable increase in optical quality, compared to what can be had new (or recently-made used). Basically, binocular technology continually moves on as new designs and materials are developed, and the standard of manufacture in China gets better and better (the current cheaper Zeiss bins are made in China, incidentally).

A further comment about chromatic aberration: It seems to be affected by whether the eyes are on-axis with the lenses. I find that if I move the bins sideways a little, CA increases, and that it can be reduced if I adjust the positions of the oculars to find the sweet spot where it's eliminated or substantially reduced. To me, this suggests that there is an aspect to the ergonomics that needs to be kept in mind - bins with twist-up eyecups are easier to get into the right position, especially once you're used to them. I tend to nestle mine into the tops of my eye sockets, pressing lightly on the bony parts under the eyebrows. For spectacle wearers, getting this alignment spot on by feel won't be as easy (the eyecups are twisted down, and the rubber part presses on the glasses, so there isn't the same physical alignment thing). As a non-specs wearer, I also find the twist-up eyecups brilliant for getting the bins at the right distance from the eyes - very easy to lift the bins up, put the tops of the cups under the eyebrow bony parts, and they're nearly always in the optimal position for eye relief and axial alignment. Having used this type, I simply would not consider using the older/cheaper types that don't have twist-up eyecups.

It might help, Dave, if you were to describe your expected uses for binoculars. It's important to keep in mind that they are all a compromise of one sort or another, whether that be optical quality against price, or magnification against shake (or subject size when viewed through the bins), weight, size, ergonomics, etc.
 
I'd be tempted to think that older porros, of any quality, are unlikely to be waterproof.

Mine worked well even in the wet conditions here, but that was the #1 problem with binoculars here back in the day. So many failed that people moved to more expensive ones in the hope that they wouldn't fog up during hunting - as I did. Back then Bushnell had impressive warranties on scopes and other optics, and I actually used that warranty to get scopes fixed, and friends used it to get bins fixed. But that didn't help given that hunting season is wet and that's when the bins or scope would fail - just when needed!

I sure agree with your comments about how to take reviews. Unless a person shops in person and brings along a chart, then it's tough to distinguish between bins even personally testing them in a store. Even then stores vary with lighting etc. Seeing how people don't often bring charts when trying bins, then a person has to wonder about their opinions. As I said with comparing the "Bone Collector" bins against the others at others at 8x the price, I was impressed after many hours of comparing. I'm pretty sure that if I'd tried them with water they'd have been waterproof. But it's whether they remain waterproof after being out in all temps and conditions that matters. Back in the day, Bushnells were waterproof until they'd met some extreme conditions. And then things changed in a hurry. I guess now after a couple of years of use, I finally can say that the BC's are good so far, but years have to go by before one can say that and people only write reviews of new stuff.
 

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