Is it a myth that “waterproof” jackets keep you dry?

[johnboy]

I had a Kwacker Drifter 1500 V-twin with Squire child/adult car. A perfect touring side-car tug - big lazy V-Twin, hydraulic valves, shaft drive, incredibly comfortable seat. The outfit was rock-steady at 90mph on the autobahn, but really started gobbling the juice at that speed, as I found to my cost when I ran out of petrol on the autobahn and 5 litres cost me 80 euros from the recovery van! Went to the Elefantentreffen at the Nurburgring for several years on it, then detoured via Luxembourg and up through Belgium to Holland on the return trip. Best of all, the sidecar detached with 4 bolts, so after disconnecting the electrics it could be ridden as a solo again.

The Motorcycle talk is more interesting than the [FONT=&quot]perennial [/FONT] Goretex vs Ventile debate....

Has John Fenna chipped in yet with his tale of 'Early Goretex'

First generation goretex did not work at all (the number of returns was phenomenal) and a pal of mine used to get new goretex for a 1 month canoe exped and need to bin it at the end - not bad for 100s of £ worth of kit (he was sponsered).

ah yes he has....

You can be sure of three things in life...

1 Death
2 Taxes
3 John Fenna's 'early Goretex' Story..

 

[John Fenna]

The Motorcycle talk is more interesting than the [FONT=&quot]perennial [/FONT]Goretex vs Ventile debate....

Has John Fenna chipped in yet with his tale of 'Early Goretex'



ah yes he has....

You can be sure of three things in life...

1 Death
2 Taxes
3 John Fenna's 'early Goretex' Story..

Cheek!
You want the full story or editted highlights?

 

[johnboy]

Cheek!
You want the full story or editted highlights?

Neither John, Neither....

 

[wulfgar]

excellent response mate and your dead right, its all about controlling your body temp and not generating pints of sweat, I have spent years and years and years walking Britains mountains including three years on a Mountain Rescue team in the Scottish highlands, nothing you wear will keep 100% of the rain out but if you layer effectively, take off layers when needed (before your dripping in sweat), open zips/vents etc to cool down or simply slow the pace slightly when its raining and your encased in gortex then you will stay comfortable....remember the most important thing is to stay warm not stay dry, people die from being cold not from being wet...

The thing i love about this place is that although we all love the outdoors there is a VAST difference in how we all experience "the outdoors"

Some are extremely active preferring to hike a fair distance and get away from civilisation, others prefer a few more comforts and rarely camp more than a few miles from their car and of course there are many degrees in between.

Although this is fantastic as a wealth of experience and knowledge on pretty much anything outdoors, it's a terrible base for advising people on clothing especially waterproof clothing.


If your sitting down and not active, then even fundamentally flawed materials like Ventile will seem to be working great.
Get up and walk up the side of a hill though and that wetted out Ventile is a miserable thing to have on you, it's heavy and soggy with water and you may as well just wear 5 bin bags for the amount of sweat it lets out.

I love the outdoors, but if you gave me a choice of hiking in the rain with a ventile jacket or staying at home and HAVING to watch some talentless gimps, sing/dance/cook their way back to some weird form of fame then i'd have to choose the later
Ventile is THAT bad hen wetted out and your active.


All this rubbish about Goretex wearing out, wetting out, not breathing etc is absolute rubbish.
I've got s Goretex jacket that must be 15 years old, it's been the nevis, snowdon, Olympus, carrantuohill, the alps, the Pyrénées etc etc etc, yet apart from being a fair bit faded and being in what i guess Paris Hilton would say unfashionable colours i still wear it and it still performs great.

I do look after my stuff though, it's careful wiped down or washed, it's re-proofed when needed and stored well.


I won't discuss sitting at the camp waterproofing as to be honest anything this side of Tesco plastic bags will suffice.

But for reasonably high activity the biggest problem is that generally people are just too lazy.
They have a base layer, jumper and waterproof when they leave the car/camp cause they're cold, they then walk up the side of a hill with all this stuff on and although they know they're getting hot and sweating heavily they often can't be bothered to take the rucksack and waterproof off and stick their jumper in their rucksack.
So inevitably they sweat out then complain that their fantastic-tex jacket is rubbish and doesn't breath.

You could put a string vest on and wet it out in these circumstances, so it's hardly surprising the jacket struggles.


It is extremely difficult finding a balance of being warm enough but not THAT warm that your sweating buckets.
After a bit of experimenting though you do start to get a good idea on what works, be it opening vent zips to stripping off a layer.


For people advising others though i really think they NEED to spend a few mins explaining what activities they do, as (for an example) "advising" someone to buy something like a Ventile jacket when the op intends to walk the alps is ridiculous, but if instead the op wanting something to wear while camping 2miles from the car then it'd be a better choice.




Cheers
Mark

 

[John Fenna]

excellent response mate and your dead right, its all about controlling your body temp and not generating pints of sweat, I have spent years and years and years walking Britains mountains including three years on a Mountain Rescue team in the Scottish highlands, nothing you wear will keep 100% of the rain out but if you layer effectively, take off layers when needed (before your dripping in sweat), open zips/vents etc to cool down or simply slow the pace slightly when its raining and your encased in gortex then you will stay comfortable....remember the most important thing is to stay warm not stay dry, people die from being cold not from being wet...

That sounds like someone else who understands the principles of "water management" as opposed to "waterproof"
I was told once that Esquimos have a saying that basicly says "To sweat is to die" as the liquid sweat will later freeze to ruin the insulatative qualities of their clothing, while thier natural material clothing breathes well enough to let insensible perspiration (water vapour) out before it condenses.
Fully waterproof clothing would have the moisture condense inside the clothing and freeze as well ...
Even in our slightly less extreme climate, managing water in/on your clothing is more important than clothing being 100% water proof

 

[Nonsuch]

My sprayway torridon goretex jacket is 16yrs old looks as good as new and work's same as when i bought it,did just nikwax it tonight as the outer layer was starting to not bead water anymore.

Great jackets - still got mine. Still works.


My formula for keeping dry and condensation-free :

Thrashing about in woods, near big fires or using tools : fleece or wool + Ventile
High activity, able to dry out afterwards : soft shell (Fleece + lightweight windproof of some kind, Paramo suits some, not me)
Heavy rain, long exposure, sitting in a canoe in the rain, can't dry out easily : Fleece + Goretex or eVent.

I've found that only Goretex or eVent is actually breathable-enough to work. The proprietary "membranes" on (eg) the Ridgeline jackets basically don't breathe enough to make a difference.

For all of these, a quality wicking base layer is the most important element. Merino doesn't do it for me (gets saturated and you end up chilled), nor does Bamboo (same, much worse). A high quality synthetic base layer (eg Lowe Alpine) is the answer for me. Regular treatment with an anti-bac base layer wash will keep it odour free.

 

[John Fenna]

Great jackets - still got mine. Still works.


My formula for keeping dry and condensation-free :

Thrashing about in woods, near big fires or using tools : fleece or wool + Ventile
High activity, able to dry out afterwards : soft shell (Fleece + lightweight windproof of some kind, Paramo suits some, not me)
Heavy rain, long exposure, sitting in a canoe in the rain, can't dry out easily : Fleece + Goretex or eVent.

I've found that only Goretex or eVent is actually breathable-enough to work. The proprietary "membranes" on (eg) the Ridgeline jackets basically don't breathe enough to make a difference.

For all of these, a quality wicking base layer is the most important element. Merino doesn't do it for me (gets saturated and you end up chilled), nor does Bamboo (same, much worse). A high quality synthetic base layer (eg Lowe Alpine) is the answer for me. Regular treatment with an anti-bac base layer wash will keep it odour free.

You make a good point there - the things that work for YOU !
Everyone is different - I tend to run hot, do not feel the cold much but die in hot, humid weather. My head sweats more than my armpits and find wool comfortable against my skin. I only have to wear synthetics next to my skin for a short time and I start stinking and getting pimples.
I find natural fibre clothing to work best for me as body clothing (nicer for the environment too ....)but will happily use synthetics (if they are the better performer for what I am doing) as a shell (although I will always prefer Ventile if I can get away with it)...
My dry suit is a "breathable" synthetic (with natural rubber seals) and my poncho is nylon, My tarp is Polycotton, my groundsheet synthetic...
My first line waterproof for Bushcrafting and general wear is Ventile

 

[rg598]

Nothing is waterproof in the absolute sense. Anything will fail at some point if exposed to enough rain (including rocks). As far as clothing that will keep you dry for several days of rain while in the woods, you need a hard shell. Recently there have been some amazing materials Active Shell, the 3rd gen Goretex, eVent and a few others. They will exclude water while maintaining a degree of breathability assuming reasonable internal temperature management by the user. I am not sure why Ventile always gets thrown into these debates. Ventile is a soft shell. It is designed to keep out wind, but was never intended to be waterproof (well, it has been advertised as such by some, but as Nansen wrote in the Crossing of Greenland, "it was nothing of the sort"). There are plenty of synthetic soft shells currently on the market, but none of them are waterproof either.

As far as the term itself, I think it is being used in a technical way, but I am okay with it within that context. I would say that a material that can keep my dry during several days of rain is waterproof, even though it is not waterproof in the absolute sense, as there will come a time when it will fail.