Is it a myth that “waterproof” jackets keep you dry?

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Tiley

Life Member
Oct 19, 2006
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Gloucestershire
Years ago, I can remember struggling up Scafell Pike in a P.U. coated Cagjac in typical Lake District conditions (i.e. pouring rain). I was as wet inside the jacket as it was outside but I could tolerate it because, though wet, at least I remained warm.

A couple of years later, I bought my first Goretex jacket and was bowled over by the apparent huge increase in 'moisture management. This 'improvement' was relative to what I had before; the same is true when comparing Goretex of old with the modern varieties or Event or whatever: things have improved but I find that it only works really well when at altitude (in my experience between 3,500 and 7,000 metres) when the conditions on the outside are cold and dry.

Back here, the performance of the jackets is compromised to a degree because of the lack of a really significant temperature and moisture differential. For all that, new or well-maintained (i.e. washed and reproofed) Goretex and Event will keep out most unpleasant whether for a prolonged period. Whether this 'weather resistance' is better/worse/the same as any other combination, such as Paramo, Buffalo or Ventile + wool, is going to be down to the individual and their chosen activity.

Although I spend significantly less time at high altitude than I used to, I still carry around and wear Goretex and/or Event for those moments when the weather is vile and I am at its mercy on a hill or mountainside. When in the woods, I prefer the Ventile and wool combination for its quietness and comfort though I would consider neither set-up to be 'waterproof'.

Are these things truly waterproof then? Well, the fabrics are but the jackets and trousers are not, simply because they have holes cut out for your head, hands and body. Couple that with the presence of a heavy-breathing, heat and moisture generating beast inside them and the fabrics, even the latest ones, don't really stand a chance of being fully and properly waterproof. Whether they'll ever manage to produce a fabric that works as well as skin in managing moisture is an interesting one; it is, perhaps, the arcanum of the outdoor clothing industry.
 

treadlightly

Full Member
Jan 29, 2007
2,692
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65
Powys
Is goretex waterproof? Yes, if you accept the industry's definition of waterproof (Hydrostatic Head) So it will do what it says on the tin - keep external water out up to a certain point. It is not so good as managing the water that comes from within.

In practice, in most circumstances, like John Fenna, I prefer wool and ventile or even just the right kind of wool.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
The thing i love about this place is that although we all love the outdoors there is a VAST difference in how we all experience "the outdoors"

Some are extremely active preferring to hike a fair distance and get away from civilisation, others prefer a few more comforts and rarely camp more than a few miles from their car and of course there are many degrees in between.

Although this is fantastic as a wealth of experience and knowledge on pretty much anything outdoors, it's a terrible base for advising people on clothing especially waterproof clothing.


If your sitting down and not active, then even fundamentally flawed materials like Ventile will seem to be working great.
Get up and walk up the side of a hill though and that wetted out Ventile is a miserable thing to have on you, it's heavy and soggy with water and you may as well just wear 5 bin bags for the amount of sweat it lets out.

I love the outdoors, but if you gave me a choice of hiking in the rain with a ventile jacket or staying at home and HAVING to watch some talentless gimps, sing/dance/cook their way back to some weird form of fame then i'd have to choose the later :banghead:
Ventile is THAT bad hen wetted out and your active.


All this rubbish about Goretex wearing out, wetting out, not breathing etc is absolute rubbish.
I've got s Goretex jacket that must be 15 years old, it's been the nevis, snowdon, Olympus, carrantuohill, the alps, the Pyrénées etc etc etc, yet apart from being a fair bit faded and being in what i guess Paris Hilton would say unfashionable colours i still wear it and it still performs great.

I do look after my stuff though, it's careful wiped down or washed, it's re-proofed when needed and stored well.


I won't discuss sitting at the camp waterproofing as to be honest anything this side of Tesco plastic bags will suffice.

But for reasonably high activity the biggest problem is that generally people are just too lazy.
They have a base layer, jumper and waterproof when they leave the car/camp cause they're cold, they then walk up the side of a hill with all this stuff on and although they know they're getting hot and sweating heavily they often can't be bothered to take the rucksack and waterproof off and stick their jumper in their rucksack.
So inevitably they sweat out then complain that their fantastic-tex jacket is rubbish and doesn't breath.

You could put a string vest on and wet it out in these circumstances, so it's hardly surprising the jacket struggles.


It is extremely difficult finding a balance of being warm enough but not THAT warm that your sweating buckets.
After a bit of experimenting though you do start to get a good idea on what works, be it opening vent zips to stripping off a layer.


For people advising others though i really think they NEED to spend a few mins explaining what activities they do, as (for an example) "advising" someone to buy something like a Ventile jacket when the op intends to walk the alps is ridiculous, but if instead the op wanting something to wear while camping 2miles from the car then it'd be a better choice.




Cheers
Mark
 

Squidders

Full Member
Aug 3, 2004
3,853
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Harrow, Middlesex
Would I like ventile and wool when riding my motorbike in the winter? No.

Is my goretex bike gear waterproof? Yes.

Seems to me that you lot all sweat too much and should just wear string vests and carry umbrellas. ;)
 

Tiley

Life Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,364
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60
Gloucestershire
But for reasonably high activity the biggest problem is that generally people are just too lazy.
They have a base layer, jumper and waterproof when they leave the car/camp cause they're cold, they then walk up the side of a hill with all this stuff on and although they know they're getting hot and sweating heavily they often can't be bothered to take the rucksack and waterproof off and stick their jumper in their rucksack.
So inevitably they sweat out then complain that their fantastic-tex jacket is rubbish and doesn't breath.

You could put a string vest on and wet it out in these circumstances, so it's hardly surprising the jacket struggles.

For people advising others though i really think they NEED to spend a few mins explaining what activities they do, as (for an example) "advising" someone to buy something like a Ventile jacket when the op intends to walk the alps is ridiculous, but if instead the op wanting something to wear while camping 2miles from the car then it'd be a better choice.

Cheers
Mark

I agree about the lazy dressing point - as all the folk-who-know say, "Start cold!".

I don't wholly agree with you about Ventile. When sopping wet, yes, it does feel like a suit of armour; but as long as the wearer expects this then what's the problem? In the woods, you do not experience quite the same quantities or violence of rain as you do on mountain or moorland though there is the 'dribble effect' which means that things are wetter for longer. In these circumstances, Ventile works pretty well and has the added advantage of being naturally thornproof and less inclined to melt when hit by fire sparks.

As far as I know, Ventile has never marketed itself as being 'waterproof but breathable' as Goretex et al have; these last could be seen as more misleading as the whole process is far from perfect as has been mentioned earlier. However you look at it, every clothing system has its limitations purely because we are wearing the stuff!
 

oldtimer

Full Member
Sep 27, 2005
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Oxfordshire and Pyrenees-Orientales, France
Over the years I've tried all the usual suspects. For the last five years I've worn a Paramo jacket and it's the best I've ever had. It seems to have got over the inside/outside wetting problem and is easily reproofed. OK, it is a little heavy, but has more thermal properties than other breathable fabrics. I do worry a bit about snagging the fabric on thorns, but it hasn't happened yet and needle and thread repairs are possible. Oh, and it's a nice green colour to go with all my other clothes!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,140
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Pembrokeshire
I am impressed by a 15 year old Goretex being in working nick - they only guarantee it for 2 years - oh - and that is non proffessional use... if you are in outdoor activities as a career the goretex guarantee is null and void ...
In my book that is an admition that it aint going to work/last very long in actual usage ...
First generation goretex did not work at all (the number of returns was phenomenal) and a pal of mine used to get new goretex for a 1 month canoe exped and need to bin it at the end - not bad for 100s of £ worth of kit (he was sponsered).
I have Ventile that is in first class condition after 5 years of regular use ... and it still works fine :)
All systems have their downside I guess and you have to remember that different waterproof treatments have different MVT rates and yet can be sold as "waterproof and Breathable" - even straight PU coating actually transmits some moisture away from you through the coating and "Waterproof" only means that the static fabric will support a column of water for a certain amount of time!
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
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A question John please, how do you 'care' for your Ventile?
Cheers.
Chris.
I wash it when it is filthy (using "storm" cleaner and proofer - but only 1/2 the recommended amounts )- dry it when it is wet and hang it by the door ....
In the field - nothing but wear it and hang it in my tarp at night - or use it as a pillow :)
It is one of those "minimum fuss" fabrics in my eyes.
I have been out for a stroll today wearing a double Ventile jacket and the snow/sleet/rain slightly darkened some patches (shoulders and under straps ) but nothing penetrated to inside the jacket.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
Would I like ventile and wool when riding my motorbike in the winter? No.

Is my goretex bike gear waterproof? Yes.

Seems to me that you lot all sweat too much and should just wear string vests and carry umbrellas. ;)

Oddly enough if i didn't have anything except Goretex or Ventile on the bike i'd tend to go towards Ventile on the motorbike.
Mainly because unless your off-roading or on the track sweat is not really a problem.


I agree about the lazy dressing point - as all the folk-who-know say, "Start cold!".

I don't wholly agree with you about Ventile. When sopping wet, yes, it does feel like a suit of armour; but as long as the wearer expects this then what's the problem? In the woods, you do not experience quite the same quantities or violence of rain as you do on mountain or moorland though there is the 'dribble effect' which means that things are wetter for longer. In these circumstances, Ventile works pretty well and has the added advantage of being naturally thornproof and less inclined to melt when hit by fire sparks.

As far as I know, Ventile has never marketed itself as being 'waterproof but breathable' as Goretex et al have; these last could be seen as more misleading as the whole process is far from perfect as has been mentioned earlier. However you look at it, every clothing system has its limitations purely because we are wearing the stuff!

That's exactly what i mean by choosing a material depending on the activity.

In the woods around a camp fire in drizzly weather i would agree that a decent Ventile jacket would be better.
1/ It's non flammable
2/ If it does get a hot coal on it it's not likely to hole as say Goretex
3/ Your not really active so again sweat is not so much a problem
4/ As you say it a damn site less tear resistant as Goretex

Problem with Ventile for me is, i do not take 2 sets of clothing out when backpacking, so i do not have the luxury of having say Goretex when hiking in the rain and Ventile for drizzly nights round the camp fire.
The 1 set of clothes i have need to do everything and keep me as dry and comfortable as possible over a wide range of conditions from hiking up steep slopes to sitting round with a cuppa.

Ventile is great for sitting round the camp fire with a cuppa, but is terrible when hiking up a steep slope in the rain.

If you only sit round a camp fire in mild rain then Ventile might well be best for you.
If on the other hand you carry out moderately high activities in all conditions then Ventile is shockingly poor.

I am impressed by a 15 year old Goretex being in working nick - they only guarantee it for 2 years - oh - and that is non proffessional use... if you are in outdoor activities as a career the goretex guarantee is null and void ...
In my book that is an admition that it aint going to work/last very long in actual usage ...
First generation goretex did not work at all (the number of returns was phenomenal) and a pal of mine used to get new goretex for a 1 month canoe exped and need to bin it at the end - not bad for 100s of £ worth of kit (he was sponsered).
I have Ventile that is in first class condition after 5 years of regular use ... and it still works fine :)
All systems have their downside I guess and you have to remember that different waterproof treatments have different MVT rates and yet can be sold as "waterproof and Breathable" - even straight PU coating actually transmits some moisture away from you through the coating and "Waterproof" only means that the static fabric will support a column of water for a certain amount of time!

What's even more surprising is, it was a cheap brand all those years ago (Pheonix, don't think they're even in business any more).
Saying that though, off the top of my head i can think of around 10 really close family members and mates that are extremely active in the outdoors, they all have something Goretex and non of them change they're waterproofs every 2 years.

What is it that's supposed to fail after 2 years John?

As i said above i'm not saying Ventile doesn't work at all, in some circumstances i would choose it over Goretex.
Those circumstances have a VERY small window of effectiveness though and i don't not have the luxury of having 3 or 4 sets of clothes for various conditions and circumstances.

So for someone that's active outdoors in the rain Goretex is less of a compromise than Ventile.

For someone sitting around the camp fire in all but heavy rain then Ventile might be less of a compromise than Goretex.

Horses for courses, but i do honestly believe that the activity level is the biggest factor in deciding what materials to use.



Cheers
Mark
 

tomongoose

Nomad
Oct 11, 2010
321
0
Plymouth
I wear a cheap old tresspass non breathable waterproof jacket over a light fleece and baselayer in the winter when I am working and its pissing down It keeps me dry and the pockets don't leak. In the summer I wear it over a tshirt if its tipping down. If you have a problem with breathability and sweating your wearing to much. If your really being active you don't need a coat I just went for a run in the sleet up on the moors and got soaked to the skin but stayed warm and put on a jacket as soon as I stopped and I was fine. I think you have to accept that you are going to end up damp if you spend a lot of time outdoors and just go for whatever is most practical and comfortable.
 

BillyBlade

Settler
Jul 27, 2011
748
3
Lanarkshire
I've had a lot of different gore tex jackets over the last twenty years. Expensive ones, cheap ones, civvie ones, surplus ones.

My conclusion?

I use a genuine alpha make M65 jacket with a woolly pully underneath. And I'm in Scotland. Where it rains. A lot.
 

cbr6fs

Native
Mar 30, 2011
1,620
0
Athens, Greece
I wear a cheap old tresspass non breathable waterproof jacket over a light fleece and baselayer in the winter when I am working and its pissing down It keeps me dry and the pockets don't leak. In the summer I wear it over a tshirt if its tipping down. If you have a problem with breathability and sweating your wearing to much. If your really being active you don't need a coat I just went for a run in the sleet up on the moors and got soaked to the skin but stayed warm and put on a jacket as soon as I stopped and I was fine. I think you have to accept that you are going to end up damp if you spend a lot of time outdoors and just go for whatever is most practical and comfortable.

I think a lot depends on the activity as well.
When cycling i find that i sweat very little and if i do as long as i have decent wicking layers on they dry extremely quickly.

It's very very rare i return from a ride wet or even damp.
Obviously you have a lot more air flowing over your body than walking or even running, plus on downhills your expending very little energy with a lot of airflow.


When hiking i've found some fantastic clothes that were perfect for the UK.
When i moved over here though i find that even if the temperatures are the same as the UK the humidity makes these temps feel very very different.

I was out tonight and it was around 3c.
Yet walking up the side of the mountain, sheltered from the wind i was down to just a long sleeved base layer AND sweating.
Can't think of in time in the last 42 years that i've ever been comfortably warm in just a base layer in the UK at 3c.

The toughest challenge i've found for clothes is fell running in the rain.
As your expending a LOT of energy, your heart rate is high, there is enough wind to bite through thin layers, but not enough to cool you down properly.
So you sweat a fair bit but still need layers to keep warm and fairly dry.


I've had a lot of different gore tex jackets over the last twenty years. Expensive ones, cheap ones, civvie ones, surplus ones.

My conclusion?

I use a genuine alpha make M65 jacket with a woolly pully underneath. And I'm in Scotland. Where it rains. A lot.

Is this for hiking, backpacking, hunting or just sat round the base camp though?
 

Chris the Cat

Full Member
Jan 29, 2008
2,850
14
Exmoor
I wash it when it is filthy (using "storm" cleaner and proofer - but only 1/2 the recommended amounts )- dry it when it is wet and hang it by the door ....
In the field - nothing but wear it and hang it in my tarp at night - or use it as a pillow :)
It is one of those "minimum fuss" fabrics in my eyes.
I have been out for a stroll today wearing a double Ventile jacket and the snow/sleet/rain slightly darkened some patches (shoulders and under straps ) but nothing penetrated to inside the jacket.

Thanks for that John.
C.
 

BillyBlade

Settler
Jul 27, 2011
748
3
Lanarkshire
I think a lot depends on the activity as well.
Is this for hiking, backpacking, hunting or just sat round the base camp though?

For anything I do outdoors really. From 10k with the pack on to nightwatching badger and deer to sitting around the fire. I just layer up and layer down as needed.
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
Simple answer is yes - depending on the clothes! I rode a motorcycle outfit some 2000 miles a couple of years ago in early Feb across Europe - temp around or below zero C. (plus add in wind-chill factor of 70-80mph....) It was raining, sleeting or snowing the whole time. My jacket and trousers (Racer for those interested) kept me warm and dry the whole trip. (Admittedly, I had heated waistcoat underneath...) The jacket wasn't new eitther - three or four years old. Waterproof gloves on the other hand.......weren't. I took 4 pairs of allegedly waterproof gloves - all leaked eventually. Took 3 weeks to get any feeling back in my fingertips.
 

John Fenna

Lifetime Member & Maker
Oct 7, 2006
23,140
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Pembrokeshire
I used to use my double Ventile (home made) on my motorbike - never any problems ... but I wore a heavy duty leather jerkin (home made with reinforced spine protection) over the top for road resistance...
 

andybysea

Full Member
Oct 15, 2008
2,609
0
South east Scotland.
My sprayway torridon goretex jacket is 16yrs old looks as good as new and work's same as when i bought it,did just nikwax it tonight as the outer layer was starting to not bead water anymore.
 

Robbi

Full Member
Mar 1, 2009
10,247
1,039
northern ireland
Simple answer is yes - depending on the clothes! I rode a motorcycle outfit some 2000 miles a couple of years ago in early Feb across Europe - temp around or below zero C. (plus add in wind-chill factor of 70-80mph....) It was raining, sleeting or snowing the whole time. My jacket and trousers (Racer for those interested) kept me warm and dry the whole trip. (Admittedly, I had heated waistcoat underneath...) The jacket wasn't new eitther - three or four years old. Waterproof gloves on the other hand.......weren't. I took 4 pairs of allegedly waterproof gloves - all leaked eventually. Took 3 weeks to get any feeling back in my fingertips.

would love to know what outfit you rode mate, i drove outfits on the road for many years and competed on them for even longer !...I love outfits :)

( passed my test on a 1957 650 Triumph Thunderbird with a chair on it ! )
 

Andy BB

Full Member
Apr 19, 2010
3,290
1
Hampshire
would love to know what outfit you rode mate, i drove outfits on the road for many years and competed on them for even longer !...I love outfits :)

( passed my test on a 1957 650 Triumph Thunderbird with a chair on it ! )

I had a Kwacker Drifter 1500 V-twin with Squire child/adult car. A perfect touring side-car tug - big lazy V-Twin, hydraulic valves, shaft drive, incredibly comfortable seat. The outfit was rock-steady at 90mph on the autobahn, but really started gobbling the juice at that speed, as I found to my cost when I ran out of petrol on the autobahn and 5 litres cost me 80 euros from the recovery van! Went to the Elefantentreffen at the Nurburgring for several years on it, then detoured via Luxembourg and up through Belgium to Holland on the return trip. Best of all, the sidecar detached with 4 bolts, so after disconnecting the electrics it could be ridden as a solo again.
 

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