International Men's Day.
- Thread starter TeeDee
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No doubt that some will find benefit and help in all this, and that is all to the good. But 'vulnerability' seems fashionable nowadays. As far as stat's go and by these very measures, society seems in many ways to have been healthier in days not so long ago.
While there is nothing wrong with seeking help if needed, neither is there anything wrong with taking something on the chin, with having a stiff upper lip, with grinning and bearing it, with manning up or what have you.
Portraying as, or even merely inferring that such things are negative is a rather blunt and poor attempt by some people to undermine what, hitherto, it has meant to be a man, or even just an adult. And their reasons are probably more political than anything else...
Interesting.
So to you, ‘What does it mean to be a man?’
It’s a question that I’ve been asked before and have no real answer.
Ha! Maybe impossible and pointless to say, since it's something that would take an enormous amount of time to do exhaustively and, anyway, is entirely subjective; but I have a few minutes before sprog-feeding time, and I like a challenge, so I'll have a quick go...
The simple biological fact is that a man is an 'adult male human', i.e. one of our species who is, disability, injury and surgery aside, capable of sexual reproduction and will not pass on mitochondrial DNA to his offspring in that process.
But I guess you were asking in a more societal spirit, and that's where the subjectivity comes into it, in an individual and a wider sense. I am unapologetically old-school, so if you read Kipling's poem 'If', you'll get a pretty fair idea of my view. Of course that won't be complete, times change, nothing last forever, but it will give you a fair idea. As is often the case, it is easier to give examples of what I think a man is not or, rather, should not be.
I don't think he should run around bleating when things aren't going his way; I think he should never be afraid to give his honest opinion; I think that regardless of his inner concerns he should maintain a strong appearance to those who look to him for support etc.; I think he accepts the blame for his mistakes and doesn't pass the buck; I think he confronts his fears and overcomes them, or finds a way to control them.
And many more things too, but it's feeding time...!
Ha! Maybe impossible and pointless to say, since it's something that would take an enormous amount of time to do exhaustively and, anyway, is entirely subjective; but I have a few minutes before sprog-feeding time, and I like a challenge, so I'll have a quick go...
The simple biological fact is that a man is an 'adult male human', i.e. one of our species who is, disability, injury and surgery aside, capable of sexual reproduction and will not pass on mitochondrial DNA to his offspring in that process.
But I guess you were asking in a more societal spirit, and that's where the subjectivity comes into it, in an individual and a wider sense. I am unapologetically old-school, so if you read Kipling's poem 'If', you'll get a pretty fair idea of my view. Of course that won't be complete, times change, nothing last forever, but it will give you a fair idea. As is often the case, it is easier to give examples of what I think a man is not or, rather, should not be.
I don't think he should run around bleating when things aren't going his way; I think he should never be afraid to give his honest opinion; I think that regardless of his inner concerns he should maintain a strong appearance to those who look to him for support etc.; I think he accepts the blame for his mistakes and doesn't pass the buck; I think he confronts his fears and overcomes them, or finds a way to control them.
And many more things too, but it's feeding time...!
Of Stoic nature as in classic stoicism. ??
Like approximately half the human population I was born with Y chromosome syndrome and in the current sociopolitical climate I need all the help I can get. Conversations with my daughters can be minefields.
……. but I don’t need a Hallmark card day.
……. but I don’t need a Hallmark card day.
Yes, very clever. As you know, it wasn't a question about biology and also as I said - to you. No real right or wrong answer and it did make me think quite a bit when it was asked. I actually couldn't bring myself to openly answer.Ha! Maybe impossible and pointless to say, since it's something that would take an enormous amount of time to do exhaustively and, anyway, is entirely subjective; but I have a few minutes before sprog-feeding time, and I like a challenge, so I'll have a quick go...
The simple biological fact is that a man is an 'adult male human', i.e. one of our species who is, disability, injury and surgery aside, capable of sexual reproduction and will not pass on mitochondrial DNA to his offspring in that process.
So my next question, is why do you think there is such a high rate of male suicide compared to females?
I'm not picking on you but think you're up for the chat. I think I do agree with you, at least to a certain extent.
I also accept that I have my own challenges that I don't really share with anyone and do wonder how much of that is because of what the expectation is 'to be a man'.
That is an issue. There are many deaths (from such things as prostate cancer) because men do not go to a doctor earlier enough - they are no doubt 'manning up'.
I think, each to their own. To insult or criticise someone for seeking help is dangerous - every man, or woman, must choose their own 'way'.
Hmm... certainly stoic in the vernacular sense; but I think that classical stoicism as a 'way to live' rather kicks the ars* out of it, and doesn't sound like much fun at all.
I’ve found that once I was able to open up about some of my struggles, it actually made me feel more of a ‘man’. It allowed me to do the classic “Put on your own oxygen mask before you help others” thing. Now I am much better equipped to be there and be strong for my wife, family, friends. I am more resilient, I am more able to have a ‘stiff upper lip’ without pushing my brain beyond capacity. I feel stronger being able to say “Hey, I have this struggle” and not give a crap what anyone else thinks of me for it. It sounds counterintuitive, but personally I think that moral courage is more of a ‘manly’ value to me than just pretending all is fine.
Whether I wanted to admit it or not, the head in sand approach I used to have where I pretended to myself I was coping by ignoring stuff, led to some unhealthy side effects I was able to recognise in hindsight.
That said, this is just my experience and we are all different.
Whether I wanted to admit it or not, the head in sand approach I used to have where I pretended to myself I was coping by ignoring stuff, led to some unhealthy side effects I was able to recognise in hindsight.
That said, this is just my experience and we are all different.
I have no idea where this comes from, or who wrote this, but I copied and kept this article years ago, as it made a lot of sense to me.
"A man carries cash. A man looks out for those around him — woman, friend, stranger. A man can cook eggs. A man can always find something good to watch on television. A man makes things — a rock wall, a table, the tuition money. Or he rebuilds — engines, watches, fortunes. He passes along expertise, one man to the next. Know-how survives him. This is immortality. A man can speak to dogs. A man fantasizes that kung fu lives deep inside him somewhere. A man knows how to sneak a look at cleavage and doesn't care if he gets busted once in a while. A man is good at his job. Not his work, not his avocation, not his hobby. Not his career. His job. It doesn't matter what his job is, because if a man doesn't like his job, he gets a new one.
A man can look you up and down and figure some things out. Before you say a word, he makes you. From your suitcase, from your watch, from your posture. A man infers.
A man owns up. That's why Mark McGwire is not a man. A man grasps his mistakes. He lays claim to who he is, and what he was, whether he likes them or not.
Some mistakes, though, he lets pass if no one notices. Like dropping the steak in the dirt.
A man loves the human body, the revelation of nakedness. He loves the sight of the pale breast, the physics of the human skeleton, the alternating current of the flesh. He is thrilled by the snatch, by the wrist, the sight of a bare shoulder. He likes the crease of a bent knee. When his woman bends to pick up her underwear, he feels that thrum that only a man can feel.
A man doesn't point out that he did the dishes.
A man looks out for children. Makes them stand behind him.
A man knows how to bust balls.
A man has had liquor enough in his life that he can order a drink without sounding breathless, clueless, or obtuse. When he doesn't want to think, he orders bourbon or something on tap. Never the sauvignon blanc.
A man welcomes the coming of age. It frees him. It allows him to assume the upper hand and teaches him when to step aside.
Maybe he never has, and maybe he never will, but a man figures he can knock someone, somewhere, on his bottom.
He does not rely on rationalizations or explanations. He doesn't winnow, winnow, winnow until truths can be humbly categorized, or intellectualized, until behavior can be written off with an explanation. He doesn't see himself lost in some great maw of humanity, some grand sweep. That's the liberal thread; it's why men won't line up as liberals.
A man gets the door. Without thinking.
He stops traffic when he must.
A man resists formulations, questions belief, embraces ambiguity without making a fetish out of it. A man revisits his beliefs. Continually. That's why men won't forever line up with conservatives, either.
A man knows his tools and how to use them — just the ones he needs. Knows which saw is for what, how to find the stud, when to use galvanized nails.
A miter saw, incidentally, is the kind that sits on a table, has a circular blade, and is used for cutting at precise angles. Very satisfying saw.
A man knows how to lose an afternoon. Drinking, playing Grand Theft Auto, driving aimlessly, shooting pool.
He knows how to lose a month, also.
A man listens, and that's how he argues. He crafts opinions. He can pound the table, take the floor. It's not that he must. It's that he can.
A man is comfortable being alone. Loves being alone, actually. He sleeps.
Or he stands watch. He interrupts trouble. This is the state policeman. This is the poet. Men, both of them.
A man loves driving alone most of all.
Style — a man has that. No matter how eccentric that style is, it is uncontrived. It's a set of rules.
He understands the basic mechanics of the planet. Or he can close one eye, look up at the sun, and tell you what time of day it is. Or where north is. He can tell you where you might find something to eat or where the fish run. He understands electricity or the internal-combustion engine, the mechanics of flight or how to figure a pitcher's ERA.
A man does not know everything. He doesn't try. He likes what other men know.
A man can tell you he was wrong. That he did wrong. That he planned to. He can tell you when he is lost. He can apologize, even if sometimes it's just to put an end to the bickering.
A man does not wither at the thought of dancing. But it is generally to be avoided.
A man watches. Sometimes he goes and sits at an auction knowing he won't spend a dime, witnessing the temptation and the maneuvering of others. Sometimes he stands on the street corner watching stuff. This is not about quietude so much as collection. It is not about meditation so much as considering. A man refracts his vision and gains acuity. This serves him in every way. No one taught him this — to be quiet, to cipher, to watch. In this way, in these moments, the man is like a zoo animal: both captive and free. You cannot take your eyes off a man when he is like that. You shouldn't. The hell if you know what he is thinking, who he is, or what he will do next."
"A man carries cash. A man looks out for those around him — woman, friend, stranger. A man can cook eggs. A man can always find something good to watch on television. A man makes things — a rock wall, a table, the tuition money. Or he rebuilds — engines, watches, fortunes. He passes along expertise, one man to the next. Know-how survives him. This is immortality. A man can speak to dogs. A man fantasizes that kung fu lives deep inside him somewhere. A man knows how to sneak a look at cleavage and doesn't care if he gets busted once in a while. A man is good at his job. Not his work, not his avocation, not his hobby. Not his career. His job. It doesn't matter what his job is, because if a man doesn't like his job, he gets a new one.
A man can look you up and down and figure some things out. Before you say a word, he makes you. From your suitcase, from your watch, from your posture. A man infers.
A man owns up. That's why Mark McGwire is not a man. A man grasps his mistakes. He lays claim to who he is, and what he was, whether he likes them or not.
Some mistakes, though, he lets pass if no one notices. Like dropping the steak in the dirt.
A man loves the human body, the revelation of nakedness. He loves the sight of the pale breast, the physics of the human skeleton, the alternating current of the flesh. He is thrilled by the snatch, by the wrist, the sight of a bare shoulder. He likes the crease of a bent knee. When his woman bends to pick up her underwear, he feels that thrum that only a man can feel.
A man doesn't point out that he did the dishes.
A man looks out for children. Makes them stand behind him.
A man knows how to bust balls.
A man has had liquor enough in his life that he can order a drink without sounding breathless, clueless, or obtuse. When he doesn't want to think, he orders bourbon or something on tap. Never the sauvignon blanc.
A man welcomes the coming of age. It frees him. It allows him to assume the upper hand and teaches him when to step aside.
Maybe he never has, and maybe he never will, but a man figures he can knock someone, somewhere, on his bottom.
He does not rely on rationalizations or explanations. He doesn't winnow, winnow, winnow until truths can be humbly categorized, or intellectualized, until behavior can be written off with an explanation. He doesn't see himself lost in some great maw of humanity, some grand sweep. That's the liberal thread; it's why men won't line up as liberals.
A man gets the door. Without thinking.
He stops traffic when he must.
A man resists formulations, questions belief, embraces ambiguity without making a fetish out of it. A man revisits his beliefs. Continually. That's why men won't forever line up with conservatives, either.
A man knows his tools and how to use them — just the ones he needs. Knows which saw is for what, how to find the stud, when to use galvanized nails.
A miter saw, incidentally, is the kind that sits on a table, has a circular blade, and is used for cutting at precise angles. Very satisfying saw.
A man knows how to lose an afternoon. Drinking, playing Grand Theft Auto, driving aimlessly, shooting pool.
He knows how to lose a month, also.
A man listens, and that's how he argues. He crafts opinions. He can pound the table, take the floor. It's not that he must. It's that he can.
A man is comfortable being alone. Loves being alone, actually. He sleeps.
Or he stands watch. He interrupts trouble. This is the state policeman. This is the poet. Men, both of them.
A man loves driving alone most of all.
Style — a man has that. No matter how eccentric that style is, it is uncontrived. It's a set of rules.
He understands the basic mechanics of the planet. Or he can close one eye, look up at the sun, and tell you what time of day it is. Or where north is. He can tell you where you might find something to eat or where the fish run. He understands electricity or the internal-combustion engine, the mechanics of flight or how to figure a pitcher's ERA.
A man does not know everything. He doesn't try. He likes what other men know.
A man can tell you he was wrong. That he did wrong. That he planned to. He can tell you when he is lost. He can apologize, even if sometimes it's just to put an end to the bickering.
A man does not wither at the thought of dancing. But it is generally to be avoided.
A man watches. Sometimes he goes and sits at an auction knowing he won't spend a dime, witnessing the temptation and the maneuvering of others. Sometimes he stands on the street corner watching stuff. This is not about quietude so much as collection. It is not about meditation so much as considering. A man refracts his vision and gains acuity. This serves him in every way. No one taught him this — to be quiet, to cipher, to watch. In this way, in these moments, the man is like a zoo animal: both captive and free. You cannot take your eyes off a man when he is like that. You shouldn't. The hell if you know what he is thinking, who he is, or what he will do next."
One thing that I have noticed, especially amongst women, is that the idea of not wanting to go into a discussion about something is often mistaken for denial.
It seems that the feminine approach is often put forward as a way to address men's mental health, whereas it appears to be more damaging than helpful.
It seems that the feminine approach is often put forward as a way to address men's mental health, whereas it appears to be more damaging than helpful.
Right, no 'cleverness' intended, just laying a foundation, and I'm way past worrying about being picked on / victimised etc., so no need for concern in that regard. Yes, I enjoy discussions, whether about things like this, or really contentious stuff such as natural or man-made handles on knives...
Suicides... pretty much wherever you look the ratio is three times as many men as women. Of course I don't know why; yet setting aside specific individual reasons, I can think of a number of factors, some acting in combination.
Opportunity... suicide is only very rarely a public thing. Women are, generally, around people / family / children more than men; men have more time alone or travelling from A to B, and solitude allows unpleasant thoughts to amplify and to be put into practice. I think that the means of carrying out a successful suicide are perhaps more available to men than women. And these, in combination with the latter, make it easier.
And then there is psychology, which I have no professional knowledge of at all. But it seems to me that, whether due to evolution or societal conditioning, men have not the same biological imperatives as females, and they may think that they are not as essential as a woman may think herself. No joking intended, but it also seems men are 'better' at killing themselves than women are; meaning that if they try they will be more likely to succeed. US stats show women make more attempts than men, yet the 3:1 figure of deaths is the same over there.
I think that our masculine history and instinct are often portrayed as 'unhealthy' by current fashion, and that this confuses some. Two mutually exclusive things are not going to be reconciled, so if a fellow hasn't the strongest of characters to start with, he may find himself struggling when he is unsure which is the best way to act.
Clearly I can't comment on your situation, and am reluctant to offer advice to any other than close friends. But I would offer a little guidance in one respect... the ancients saw wisdom in two words, maybe above all others: 'Know thyself'.
You will know if you are doing fine, or if you are having a problem with X, Y or Z; you will know. What you choose to do with that knowledge is solely down to you; but anyone who knows he has something wrong and doesn't take the necessary steps to fix it is, self evidently, a bloody fool. That applies to me, you and everyone else; as below, there's nothing 'manly' in not admitting a problem, and it's manifestly daft not to fix something that can be.
I think not going to a doctor early enough is the exact opposite of manliness, because it's not confronting something that needs attention.
I'm a classical liberal - I've little time for party politics so mean that exactly as written. I think that people should be as free as possible to do and act as the wish to, provided it doesn't affect others adversely.
Yes, all very good.
But I can't help feel that you could replace the word 'man' with 'woman' and it would mean just as much.
So I don't really know where that all gets you in understanding what a man is.
It's a bit like when you get those soundbites (usually coming out of politicians of a particular stripe) saying things like, 'British values are fair-play, generosity, and equality'. As if other countries will have nothing to do with those things.
It just doesn't get you anywhere in understanding the subject because those values and traits are not specific to just that one thing.
You could also just replace it with ‘person’ and it would mean even less in trying to define what a man or indeed a woman is. Biologically men and woman’s are separate genders but two men of the same gender can very different as ‘persons’.
When I read through the new comments on this old thread I relate to some ideas but not others. My life experience as a male person are not the same as others and I don’t feel any problem with where I am as a man. As I grow older I seem to more willing to adjust, change and adapt rather than feel like I struggle in a different society that I don’t understand. Personally I think the world my son grows up in much better than the one I grew up in in the late 70’s and 80’s. I like this world with increased equality and understanding and am happy and confident with how I fit in it.
That's fine as far as it goes, and I think anyone denying that many modern things are improvements on the old is daft; but many are not as good as they once were.
Your last sentence is interesting; there is more equality in some matters certainly, but I don't think that there is what one would have thought would be an obvious corollary to that, meaning more toleration. I think this is 'issue' based rather than in a broader political sense, although I wouldn't rule that out entirely.
I first noticed it in the 90s in the US debate regarding pro-choice / pro-life; with many on each side demonising the other. I see it now in many things, trans, Brexit, reparations, immigration, a dignified death etc., it seems to be on the increase. Regardless of how reasonable, decent and level-headed someone may be, their opponents - on whichever side - increasingly label them as extreme and add any other insult that they think appropriate.
I do enjoy healthy debate - however - before this thread veers off into a political quagmire , drawing in unrelated topics and potentially contentious issues maybe worth just revisiting post #1 and reminding oneself of what the thread is about as opposed to the other things that can or will be drawn into it.
< With respect - Don't really want another thread pulled. >
< With respect - Don't really want another thread pulled. >
I suppose it's become hard to discuss one without the other, as there seems to be a strong link between the problems facing young men and those subjects deemed contentious.
Hopefully it can be discussed reasonably and within a relevant context.
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